Cloth Glider Pilot Badge

[W Petz]

Jeff,

I believe Jos said he only had that one picture that he took from a dealer site. I'm sure if there was a reverse shot of the copy it would show some major differences.

Bill

Yes, there are differences. Why would you post only half a badge? Are you unable or unwilling to show the reverse?
best wishes,
jeff

[90th Light]

Be very careful ..


Jos.

The badge which Jos has posted to compare with may not be fake either.

A friend of mine in Germany has told me that someone thought they were fake because quite a number were found unissued. They are probably both by the same maker and all these differences which some collectors now claim to see are in fact "day-light variations"

The difference in the backing cloth means nothing, this often varies from one shade of blue grey to grey depending on what scraps of cloth they were using. The subtle differences in details also occurs on originals depending on when in the war the badge was made 1940 vs 42 vs 44, how thick the thread was, cotton verses rayon and how old the machine doing the weaving was. No two of these cloth German aircrew badges is ever exactly the same and there are always very slight differences but each maker had there own style of badge and weave. The two badges shown here are the style of one particular maker and 100% correct.

At 15 Euro, Jos's one is a bargain of the century. I dare anyone here to get one and compare the reverse with the one which started this thread

I bet you will be delighted, Chris

[90th Light]

The badge which Jos has posted to compare with may not be fake either.

A friend of mine in Germany has told me that someone thought they were fake because quite a number were found unissued. They are probably both by the same maker and all these differences which some collectors now claim to see are in fact "day-light variations"

The difference in the backing cloth means nothing, this often varies from one shade of blue grey to grey depending on what scraps of cloth they were using. The subtle differences in details also occurs on originals depending on when in the war the badge was made 1940 vs 42 vs 44, how thick the thread was, cotton verses rayon and how old the machine doing the weaving was. No two of these cloth German aircrew badges is ever exactly the same and there are always very slight differences but each maker had there own style of badge and weave. The two badges shown here are the style of one particular maker and 100% correct.

At 15 Euro, Jos's one is a bargain of the century. I dare anyone here to get one and compare the reverse with the one which started this thread

I bet you will be delighted, Chris

p.s. early war woven badges always had thicker thread and less gaps than later war examples by the same maker which always makes a bit of a difference as to how a badge looks but they are always of a consistant style and weave pattern .

[Stijn David]

glider badges cloth

Hello,


I feel i need to react towards this statement "At 15 Euro, Jos's one is a bargain of the century. I dare anyone here to get one and compare the reverse with the one which started this thread "

The badges as Josh do show is a Fake (it is also shown as such in the add => Neuanfertigung" and it is known also that these badges are reproduced from the early 1980's.

So the badge at 15 € is not the bargain of the century. It is a fake and it does remain a fake.


Original glider cloth badges are a very rare thing, that is correct. To say something about the badge this thread is about => one needs to hold it in his hands, feel it, etc....

Cordial greetings,

[90th Light]

OK then this should be easy.

At 15 Euro and being a common fake since the 1980's could someone please post an example. The front and the back would do the trick so we all can learn.

The front looks great from the small image we all can see but the back should tell all.

so far all we seem to have concluded is that the good badge is on a grey backround and the bad one on a blue-grey. This in its self is not exactly an over-whelming piece of evidence and could equally apply to original examples of cloth LW aircrew badges which are also found on both grey and blue grey back-rounds.

I know the boggieman is out there so lets see one then again it would not be the first time collector folklore has got it wrong,

Chris

[Stijn David]

cloth glider badge

Hello,


I think we are simply wasting time with trying to proove the shown badge from 15 € original. It is what it is.

Concentrate on known original badges and you will have more fruit.

For example: certainly the producing technices from back then can be easely done today again => there is less needed in making a cloth badge then in making a metal one.

Back colour of the cloth should not be a determining factor, there are originals known with both Blue backing, Brown, etc....

So lets stick towards the known badges. Here is a original cloth one as was worn by Fw. Schaedler W.

More to follow (one of the named fakes from the 80's for your comparison)

[Stijn David]

and then one of the 80's fakes

Hello,


And since it is then so easy to provide images of a fake one => here we have these. Ah yes for your interest, these where produced and sold for example on veteran gatherings during the early 80's.

These where produced near Hannover. Reverse image will be shown also for the interest of collectors.


Cordial greetings,

[Stijn David]

the reverse

Hello,


And the reverse of the shown badge above.


Cordial greetings + hope it helps

[90th Light]

Very interesting indeed. I wonder how many collectors are now giving their cloth aircrew badges a second "uneasy" look over.

I just had an interesting email from my friend in German about this. He was so intrigued about such cloth aircrew badges that he tracked down a source in Germany some time ago to see if he could find out about them being made. They said they could not because what they had been selling (unoffically of course) was left over late war stock.

so if I contacted this source in Hannover, they could make as many as I would want to buy ???

What I do not understand, is how could a German company get away with making post-war veteran badges with a swaz ???

Bad enough to sell original Nazi items in Hannover but to make new ones is certainly a crime against German law is it not.

What I am keen to learn is how does one tell a post war made after May45 cloth LW aircrew badge from an unissued late war example made before May 45.

The glider badge which Jos first showed for 15 Euro would appear to be an almost exact copy on par with many unissued examples .

Many thanks, Chris

[Stijn David]

cloth glider badge

Hello
<O</O
What you do not understand has nothing to do with reality (not agrissevely meant) => please let me explain. A faker does not care about a law. It is not because a law in a certain country does prohibit certain things to be made that this law will be followed.
<O</O
Who has ever said or written down for example that these are made by company x or y (you do not need a company to produce such cloth badges => a few good craftsman can do the job IMHO, no expensive tooling, just cloth, threads, a machine, etc…. etc.. etc….) . Ah yes and threads and cloth (both original wartime are available => so not that big deal to get even the original material.)
<O</O
Asking yourself how can a company (or person x or y) get away in producing a fake KC? Is asking yourself the exact same question. Is it a crime? Yes in many ways (both against German law, against the collecting community, etc…) but that does not matter in these things and is a reality we as a collector have to deal with.
<O</O
Towards your hypothetic question “ So if i contacted this source in Hannover, they could make as many as i would want to buy? “. I assume the answer is yes. Why not? Do you think iff you have an order to lets say whatever fake producer from such cloth badges that your order of for example 100 or 200 such badges could not be produced? I assume once again the answer would be yes. <O></O>
<O</O
Reality is simple => fakes are (and where + will still be) made and sold as original. No matter what law or collectors do believe.
<O</O
I think personally that you put up a correct question => “how does one tell the difference between a original (wartime) and a fake example?” Indeed very hard towards almost impossible nowadays and therefore think twice before obtaining such a piece would be my advice.
<O</O
You do mention your source in Germany and a certain maker. Please enlighten us towards wich company then did make such cloth badges. What was there production range, what kind of badges did they make, etc… etc …. There is so few known about these IMHO that it also would be very interesting to learn more about this. <O</O
<O</O
It is also a myth IMHO in quite a few cases that certain pieces are left over stocks. (sure these stocks do exist) but then they should look lexactly like wartime known and worn examples. Not like something else or have different features. <O</O
<O</O
What does know original cloth glider badges do look like? As far as we know at this point there are examples known such as the shown badge from the Schaedler legacy (and also others as mentioned + check out the book ‘glider pilot badge” from B & D publishing.
<O</O
Who produced these wartime? That is something we don’t know at this point of time.
<O</O
Howmany different producers where there wartime and howmany variations? Also something we don’t know at this point.
<O</O
In short => we do know actually not that much. So is reality. We also know that these are very very rare (original ones) not only because wear was prohibited during the war. (why? Don’t know that once again ) but also due to the fact that glider pilots wear a rare bunch compared towards other Lw. Branches. Cloth is much more difficult to preserve over time then its metal counterpart, etc… etc…..
<O</O
I for example like the comment => “The glider badge wich Jos First showed for 15 Euro would appear to be an almost exact copy on par with many unissued examples”
<O</O
My questions towards this; <O</O

• Are you so sure the unissued exampels are wartime? (If so => why?)<O></O>
• Where are the worn examples then that are an exact par towards these many unissued examples? <O></O>
• Iff there are differences lets say, could it also not be because the master badge was also a fake ( a fake produced from a fake badge? / just asking myself questions in this)<O></O>
• Etc.. <O</O

<O</O
Cordial greetings + thanks for reading,

[90th Light]

OK, I will try and address Stijn's comprehensive answer in more detail as soon as I get chance. Just rushing off to a meeting now.

but a short reply I do put forward is, some time ago I was lucky enough to meet some Japanese producers ("The Real McCoy Company") who were making exact replica American fight jackets here in New Zealand. ie A2, B3, D1, G1 etc.

They wanted these correct down to the last stitch. To get the maker/USAF labels exact like the war-time ones they had to find some 1930's weaving machines and get 1940's templates to make them run. This took some finding, rebuilding and quite a bit of money.

but they did it. My point however is that had they not been able to get the 1930's machines the result would have been no where near as exact on a computerised modern machine. They tried that first but the result was near enough but not good enough.

To make exact German cloth flight badges today from the 1930's and 1940's you need big machines from the 30's & 40's

Todays machines weave far too tight and it does not look right esp. on the reverse side,

Chris

[90th Light]

Just reading Stijn's post number 25 again and I need to ask questions about this in bits one by one so we do not become too confused with cross over issues.

so further to my point in post 26 that to make exact reproductions with original materials (if you can get them) then you also need orginal period machines and templates (or at least an ablity to make such a template so the machine will follow the exact weave-wrap-sew pattern of the original badge)

The next question I have is, how does a maker in Hannover get away under German law with making a badge post war for meetings of German veterans which still has a "swaz" on it ??? ( Stijn states this in post number 22 )

I mean I have quite a number of DAK items from meetings of the Afrikakorps veterans association (when that organisation was still going) and none of those has ever had a swaz on it. The Afikakorps association would have had nothing to do with making a badge for their membership with the swaz so why would a LW veterans associations try and do this.

Sure, may be the odd individual in such associations wanted the swaz on the badge but I have never heard of such an organisation placing an order for badges with swaz's to supply their membership. This does not seem right to me regardles of human nature to break the law or not. These German post war veteran organisations seem to have been very careful regarding this.

Interested, Chris

[Jos L C]

The question regarding how people get away with this is simple IMO, these badges with swas are made illegal and just vanish in the circuits.., hence the fact that most of these sources are unknown.
Howmany of us can point a finger towards the sources where fake badges are being made ?
Eventually we know the dealers, yes, but not the makers .., not talking about reenactment stuff, but the "real" deal items.
We've to be happy that certain dealers selling them as fakes, otherwise it would be hard to tell right from wrong, the techniques are still improving because of the insane prices we're willing to pay and it'll go on.

Jos.

[Stijn David]

cloth glider badge

Hello,


Just for a reference - so i think we can easely agree that such badges can be exactly reproduced and they are. (this in general)

Also something i want to set straight => i never did write down that these badges where produced in order of a certain veteran asso. The fact that they are offered somewhere do not indicate that they are also produced in order of the persons who do organize something.

But all this is simply marginally related towards the general issue of this thread.

Please advise and answer some of my other asked questions as i am very interested in learning more; such as

A) You do mention your source in Germany and a certain maker. Please enlighten us towards wich company then did make such cloth badges. What was there production range, what kind of badges did they make, etc… etc …. There is so few known about these IMHO that it also would be very interesting to learn more about this. <O</O
<O</O
B) I for example like the comment => “The glider badge wich Jos First showed for 15 Euro would appear to be an almost exact copy on par with many unissued examples”
<O</O
My questions towards this; <O</O

• Are you so sure the unissued exampels are wartime? (If so => why?)<O</O
• Where are the worn examples then that are an exact par towards these many unissued examples? <O</O
• Iff there are differences lets say, could it also not be because the master badge was also a fake ( a fake produced from a fake badge? / just asking myself questions in this)<O</O
• Etc..

Ah yes i am still very interested in the outcome of what other collectors do think => there must be more collectros out there who have Lw. cloth badges. How do you recognize a original from a fake one? etc....

A very interesting thread and please let us learn from each other.

Cordial greetings, <O</O
<O</O

[90th Light]

Have just had a reply from my friend in Germany to my question asking if he can tell us which businesses he went to to see if they were making these cloth LW aircrew badges.

He said he is not prepared to do this on a world-wide forum and also stressed that he did not find any businesses that were making them. What he found at the time and it was some time ago was businesses with left over war-time stock which had been hidden away and recently sold to them. He can remember they had pilot & observer badges & both, air-gunners with lighting bolts and paratroopers. There was a large quantity of the the AG with blitz and most were still tied togther in bundles with string. They had initially however had all the badges including the glider badge but they had not had many of some types.

He is quite certain that what he saw was left over war time stock and he reminded me that some of the very well known German dealers also had got some of these and had them for sale on their sites at that time.

In fact I got some from one very well known and respected German dealer at that time. I still have them some where so perhaps I could post some images if it would be a help but again they are not glider badges.

This is turning into a very interesting thread indeed and it raises a very important question which does not ever seem to have been looked at in any great detail,

"How does one tell a good cloth LW badge from a bad one ???? "

In fact I wonder if we should start a new thread under that title to get more interest and hopefully more people sharing what they know.

Perhaps Jos could launch it and we could merge it with this one.

Will try and answer more of Stijn's questions as soon as I get time to post again.

Best regards, Chris