Luftwaffe Glider Pilots Badge

[90th Light]

Hello,

Please also note, that NO glider badges where ever more awarded after september 1944. That is a fact (as many other things) so one should be aware of that. Where the ball hinges ever awarded? At this point nothing does point into that direction. Are they wartime? Who will say? i can't because no clear evidence (and we all are limited) of proof of that can be found. To many questions unsolved IMHO to say it is this or that way in the ball hinge glider case.

And all this is just my opinion offcoarse and with the upmost respect for everybodu's opinion and belief

Hello Stijn,

I have noted and taken on board what you have stated about your sample of glider pilots who you interviewed and basically you have done the best with who you could get to talk to. What else could be expected that long after the war and on a topic so sensitive to some for range of reasons.

At the end of the day it is still only a sample of convenience however and it has all the limitations of such a sample. The biggest one being that you may have missed the pilots who got the ball hinge glider because you did not have a cross-section of the population. I do agree however that your sample was wide and as complete as possible based on what you now tell me.

The point is that you say "I believe" in these badges like it is some item I got from a dealer. You say the veteran I got the badge from was in "fantasy" about it coming from the war.

This is what I am taking exception too, I do not believe in these badges like I am talking myself into a fake, I got one from a veteran who was a POW taken on Crete. He was in no fantasy that he got it from an LW base in 1945 as he left Germany after having a hell of a time there. This is a fact not an opinion or a belief.

I do not expect you to rewrite your book unless you see the need and I probably will not write one myself about this. All I have tried to do, is too share with you some important information that I got one of these ball hinge glider from an allied soldier who got it on or before May 1945. Personally I thought you would find this to be of real interest and even a concern seeing as before I shared this, you were stating that the ball hinge was probably post war based solely on the basis that none of the glider pilots who you interviewed from a sample of convenience with no reported standard deviation of error had one.

Your finding is of great interest and puzzlement to me so surely my evidence must be of real interest to you. Yet initially you brushed this to one side and even put it down as something I believe in but not something that any serious glider badge collector would put much weight on. This is why I have come on strongly, if my evidence can be so easily dispelled then lets focus more on the limitations of your research and start to realise that both of us have more work to do before we come to conclusion on this.

The last statement you make sums it up nicely, "that NO glider badges were awarded after september 1944" and I agree with on that but you are extending this to an assumption that no glider badges were produced after September 1944. That is not correct, the badge was still in production and still being stocked in LW outlets. I mean why would it not be, many believed and were being told that Germany would win the war. Contracts were still in existance and still being made plus Germany was in the full swing of its war-time production. In fact their economic growth actually increased that year and it was one of the few years that they reached full capacity. Just because they had stopped training the glider pilots does not mean they had stopped making the badge although I do agree the need to re-stock would have slowed. May-be this explains why the ball hinge is a good example of mid-war production but we do not really ever see late war examples.

The fact that I and others have a veteran brought back example of this badge is something for us all to take seriously in the study of this badge. It is not something for us to just brush aside as a confused opinion or some form of post-war production trick. Let the search continue because we now have three veteran found examples and that is a 300% increase from when you first stated that in your opinion they were post war.

Again with all due respect for a great bit of research on your part and a true concern to try and find out more about this,

Chris

[Marc Garlasco]

While I agree in general with the comments I will just note how amazing a couple vet finds trumps over 50 glider pilots. Of course we are talking about more than the sample, but you all so easilly poo-poo Stijn's sample and trump it with a few vets. I think we need to look at this holistically of course. Just an observation.

[Jeff V]

The main question here is was this ball hinge glider made before the end of ww2. Stijn sample is of what badges glider pilots were awarded. BSW and Juncker are the only ones he came up with. Fair enough, but this still has little relevance to whether the badges in question were manufactured before the conclusion of hostilities.
best wishes,
jeff

[90th Light]

While I agree in general with the comments I will just note how amazing a couple vet finds trumps over 50 glider pilots. Of course we are talking about more than the sample, but you all so easilly poo-poo Stijn's sample and trump it with a few vets. I think we need to look at this holistically of course. Just an observation.

You make a fair point Marc,

but it has never been my intention to disolve Stijn's sample or discredit his findings. The more I learn of his research and his ability with such things the more I am impressed.

That in no way removes however the limitation of such a sample or the danger of concluding that ball hinge glider badges must be post war because none of those talked to in this sample had one.

My intention is to report to you all what I have found and give the fact that mine is one of three reported allied veteran examples in existance, the weighting it deserves in this. This weighting has been undervalued in Stijn summation of these.

After all is not important that we take into account the fact that the ball hinge glider was in stock at least in April/ May 1945. That does have a major bearing on any declaration of them being a post-war, parts only badge. Does it not ?

Probably a good opportunity to ask what you do not like. I have mine here side by side with my ball hinge flak badges at the moment and one could not help but wonder if that is in fact the maker of these gliders. I mean look at the hinge, the pin, the way the hinge and pin are crimped into the badge. the actual hook however is more like what one finds on an "RK" panzer rather than the flak or the "SA" badges but all the war time foot prints are there. Also I have not seen a heavily plated ball hinge flak. Mine are either a nice heavy nickle silver or a bake painted/ varnish zinc variety (some zinc examples with silver paint on the back and some without)

What are your points of like or dislike on the glider Marc ?

Best regards, Chris

[Leroy]

The evidence lies in the badge itself, not just in the memories of either German or Allied vets. What is there about the ball-hinge's construction which is not correct for a wartime badge? No one, as far as I can see, is trying to say at this stage that they have proof that the badge was actually worn, only that it was available. To me, there's a HUGE difference. Maybe some day, a photo will appear that is clear enough to show this badge in wear, or then, maybe not. What good is it to familiarize yourself, through countless hours of study, with the techniques of badge construction, but then not be able to apply that knowledge to the ball-hinge Glider?

Even if Stijn's work is accepted fully (and I, for one, am perfectly willing to give praise where praise is due), it simply shows that the ball-hinge was almost certainly (based on what we know so far) NOT a piece used by the government as an award piece. So what?

[90th Light]

I just went and had another look at my ball hinge flak badges and compared with my ball hinge glider badge.

The hook on the early nickle silver ball hinge flaks matches the the hook on my "SA" Panzer and Minesweepers (a flat top hook)

but the hook on my zinc ball hinge flaks match the hook on my "RK" Panzers and my ball hinge glider. (an "S" round wire hook)

Both the hinge and hook are crimped into the badge in the same way on all these badges plus they all have flat east and west sides to the top of the pin where it goes into the hinge.

These companies must have been sharing parts and production the same way companies like Juncker & Jmme did.

All period pre May-45 footprints in my experience to date,

Chris

[nzef1940]

I personally have no doubts the ball hinge glider badge is correct, comments regarding the inadequecy of forming a water tight conclussion based on a limited sample of data are valid. (I have an audit background and have seen the very real danger in this approach)

If you interviewed 50 21st Pz Div vets and none had a 'Porsche' or rarer Pz style badge is it then wrong?

It may well be that the badge is late war and made of sub contracted parts from varied manufacturers, dont forget that vast areas of German industry were devastated and not all work was done on a Model T style production line.

Sure there were a very small number of Gilder pilots, that still for the reasons outlined above does not preclude that more than a couple of makers may have been involved in their manufacture. Perhaps in late 1944 there was a special order of x number of badges with the majority not being issued.

I see the dreaded if its not in the 'text' book element in the collecting community rearing its less than attractive head.

[Marc Garlasco]

I think I should handle one before I praise or condemn it. I never said I don't like it. In the old referneced thread I noted the amazing similarity to the ball-hinge flak. In this thread I said i am not a believer. That's all. Lemme hold one before i pass judgement, but allow me some healthy skepticism.
Marc

[Marc Garlasco]

I see the dreaded if its not in the 'text' book element in the collecting community rearing its less than attractive head.

I do not think this a fair comment.

[90th Light]

I think I should handle one before I praise or condemn it. I never said I don't like it. In the old referneced thread I noted the amazing similarity to the ball-hinge flak. In this thread I said i am not a believer. That's all. Lemme hold one before i pass judgement, but allow me some healthy skepticism.
Marc

Thanks Marc,

that is all I can ask but I will be very interested to see what you feel when you have. Mine are here side by side now and as I have said there are cross-over between these companies esp, "RK"& "SA"

Will be interested to see what you find when you get the chance,

Chris

[90th Light]

Guys,
A most interesting thread. I am by no means knowledgeable on glider badges, but would ask you to take a look at this thread by Pavel: http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...hlight=scholze

It does show the possibility of Scholze in Gablonz making badges for makers in other parts of Germany, so there could be a possibility of AS making these under contract to Juncker. No definite proof of this, but just trying to lay out what could be a possibility of some of these being made in Gablonz very late in the war.
Dale

Hello Dale,

I have just read this thread. Very interesting indeed and thank you for bringing it to our attention.

What I am calling "SA" is in fact the unknown "AS" in the triangle with the ball hinge. Never seen the cast hinge like on the ones in this thread however.

Many thanks, Chris

[Stepdale]

Chris,
I'm heading back to Europe this summer and hope to get to Gablonz again and see what all pavel is finding by the old AS factory as well as near other makers. I also hope one day to get to Reichenberg and see if the archives there has anything, though written records from the TR era are spotty at best. I amy never find any definite proof of who the real AS in a trinagle maker was or who all the members of the AGMuK were, but I'll keep trying. Who knows, maybe I'll even find something pointing to the maker of these glider badges.
Dale

[90th Light]

Chris,
I'm heading back to Europe this summer and hope to get to Gablonz again and see what all pavel is finding by the old AS factory as well as near other makers. I also hope one day to get to Reichenberg and see if the archives there has anything, though written records from the TR era are spotty at best. I amy never find any definite proof of who the real AS in a trinagle maker was or who all the members of the AGMuK were, but I'll keep trying. Who knows, maybe I'll even find something pointing to the maker of these glider badges.
Dale

Thanks Dale,

every bit is another piece in the puzzle. I now look forward to anything else you find and share with us. What Pavel has told us here creates some confusion now which itself needs more investigation.

Best regards, Chris

[Thomas Durante]

Chris,
I'm heading back to Europe this summer and hope to get to Gablonz again and see what all pavel is finding by the old AS factory as well as near other makers. I also hope one day to get to Reichenberg and see if the archives there has anything, though written records from the TR era are spotty at best. I amy never find any definite proof of who the real AS in a trinagle maker was or who all the members of the AGMuK were, but I'll keep trying. Who knows, maybe I'll even find something pointing to the maker of these glider badges.
Dale

Good luck with your research Dale! This would certainly be big news as I know several German researchers that have also made this trade to study the archives. They have solved some mysteries, but these too still elude us. Please let us know what you find.

Tom

[Spagg199th]

Chris,
I'm heading back to Europe this summer and hope to get to Gablonz again and see what all pavel is finding by the old AS factory as well as near other makers. I also hope one day to get to Reichenberg and see if the archives there has anything, though written records from the TR era are spotty at best. I amy never find any definite proof of who the real AS in a trinagle maker was or who all the members of the AGMuK were, but I'll keep trying. Who knows, maybe I'll even find something pointing to the maker of these glider badges.
Dale

Dale, good luck with your research. I hope you find something pointing to the maker of these Glider Badges!
That would be helpful.
Regards,
Sal