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Helmut Weitze

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Droop Tail Eagle Spanish Cross

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    #31
    Well, certainly not objective, but subjectively, the eagles and hilts just plain lack the details that should be there. Gary said it first and I concur.

    They are a blatant weak link in the chain, to me.

    I saw for sale, on a German Dealers site, an S&L salesman's board, with 3R ribbons and other small pins. The eagles on the 4 & 12 year ribbons were not droop tail, if that means anything. None of the eagles at all were droop tail. That is not any necessarily relative determination, pertaining to the award here in question. Just another flag for my skepticism.

    Mark
    "You can check out any time you like ..... But you can never leave....."

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      #32
      Hi,

      I just looked thru my copy of the 50th anniversary S&L catalog, published in 1939, and there are no Spanish Crosses shown. Interestingly all of the Luftwaffe eagle attachments for ribbon bars stickpins are of the droop tail variety.

      Gary B
      ANA LM #1201868, OMSA LM #60, OVMS LM #8348

      Comment

        #33
        I have to agree with earlier comments. The details of this cross are not very good and the hardware does not appear period. To me, there is a "softness" to this badge which suggests casting. While not all real crosses would win the quality prize, this one is really second-rate. If it is an S&L (and I don't believe it is) it would have to be a 60's product at best, in my opinion.

        There may well be droop-tailed crosses and certainly, as I mentioned earlier, some companies may have made limited runs of them in anticipation of the "soon to be coming" Spanish war award, only to have the Luftwaffe change its eagle style in mid-stream. (Certainly, the crosses depicted on Next-of-Kin boxes suggest a different design was contemplated.) I know several respected collectors and dealers
        who have seen examples of droop-tailed crosses they believed to be genuine, but I have never personally handled one. Regretably, photographs of this badge in wear (and member Jacques has compiled a fine collection of these) have not yet yielded "for sure" proof of these having been actually issued or worn (although some photos are VERY close). So, they may be out there, but I don't believe this one is one of them.

        Leroy

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          #34
          There is just a terrible lack of quality in a badge that was produced this early. The feathers are nothing more than a cross hatch pattern, the swastikas don't even look the same from one eagle to the next as if they were all separately produced or finished, the detail on the stippling of the cross is lacking and no where near the quality of known originals. There are many questionable badges out there that I would feel more comfortable about than this one. It is too crude and, as stated previously, the hardware doesn't seem to add up.

          The next of kin case has always made me wonder as well. Why a drooped eagle design for a medal that has a swept up tail? I have never been able to reconcile that anomaly.
          Richard V

          Comment

            #35
            I'd agree with the comments already posted so far on this being suspect at best, or more likely a copy. In addition to the comments on the 57-like hardware, poor detailes to the eagles, and I'd also add the soft edges to the reverse of the swords...gives me the impression of a cast piece.

            Comment

              #36
              Spanish Cross

              Originally posted by Jody Beltram View Post
              Hi Craig,
              INFO magazine did a great article on these in issue # 57/58 (August 1988) pages 40-42.

              Regards,
              Jody
              Here is the magazine that I promised.

              Cover:
              Attached Files

              Comment

                #37
                Info

                I don't want to violate some copyright law and put on the whole article but here is the segement which discusses the fake with down-turned tails.

                Regards,
                Jody
                Attached Files

                Comment

                  #38
                  There is virtually no chance these are real. Never seen one in a period pic. Never in an ironclad grouping. Always poor quality. Always dubious set ups. all documented crosses are high quality, particularly awarded pieces. Awarded pieces of the silver grade were made of silver. Never seen a silver doop tail made of silver. Best chance they could have is to be late private purchase, but then you would have to believe that they went to a droop tail pattern late. Beyond reasonable by far! Add to this that there are tons of these around literally tons. So why would this incredibly common badge never have been in a period photo or vet grouping. You have to be far more than open minded to even try to imagine these as originals.

                  If anyone has a quality version of a droop tail I would be happy to see it, but so far all I have ever seen are poor fakes.

                  Comment

                    #39
                    Hi guys,

                    Jody, thanks for the article. Looks like the same cross to me and that pin shown on the one in the article is classic for '57 awards.

                    Tom
                    If it doesn't have a hinge and catch, I'm not interested......well, maybe a little

                    New Book - The German Close Combat Clasp of World War II
                    [/SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
                    Available Now - tmdurante@gmail.com

                    Comment

                      #40
                      Here's one I found in a box last night while rummaging around (amazing what you forget you have!). Almost classic postwar style pin and catch. This one is so sharply die-struck, you can cut yourself on the arms. Nicely tiered center with high swas. It appears to be either real silver or silver plate.

                      Sorry for the quality of the photos.
                      Attached Files

                      Comment

                        #41
                        Terrible shot, but may show center elevations.
                        Attached Files

                        Comment

                          #42
                          Back.
                          Attached Files

                          Comment

                            #43
                            One more in natural light.
                            Attached Files

                            Comment

                              #44
                              Spanish Cross

                              Originally posted by Leroy View Post
                              Here's one I found in a box last night while rummaging around (amazing what you forget you have!). Almost classic postwar style pin and catch. This one is so sharply die-struck, you can cut yourself on the arms. Nicely tiered center with high swas. It appears to be either real silver or silver plate.

                              Sorry for the quality of the photos.
                              Hi Leroy,
                              That is exactly like the cross I got burned with in the early 80's (Silver w/out swords). My cross had a JMME hallmark too (plus a CA from Angolia). You are correct it is very sharp and the arms are very pointy, I even jabbed myself with it once. My friends, and I joked at the time and called it a "Nazi throwing Star".

                              Jody

                              Comment

                                #45
                                Originally posted by Jody Beltram View Post
                                You are correct it is very sharp and the arms are very pointy, I even jabbed myself with it once. My friends, and I joked at the time and called it a "Nazi throwing Star".

                                Jody

                                It's a "real killer" cross!

                                Comment

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