Droop Tail Eagle Spanish Cross

[Jody]

Spanish Cross

Hi guys,

Jody, thanks for the article. Looks like the same cross to me and that pin shown on the one in the article is classic for '57 awards.

Tom

Hi Tom,
I can say this, that fake has been around a long time. As you can see the article I posted is from August 1988 and the example I owned was like the one posted by Leroy and I purchased it in 1981 or 1982 (before I graduated high school in 82).

I knew a guy that had one of these and he claimed to have bought his in 1976.

Regards,
Jody

[Leroy]

I think Jody is right that this one has been around for a long time. I can't remember where the one I posted came from, but I can guarantee (from the other stuff in the box I found it in) it was in the 70's. I must say it's nicely made and has all the characteristics of an original die-strike I would like to see on a wartime badge. The pin/catch set-up is obviously wrong, but the cross itself is a fine piece.

Now back to the original question: Were any of these made during the war?

[Sal Williams]

Leroy, I have to disagree that that badge shows any characteristics of a wartime badge. I doubt it is silver. At best silver plated. So now look at the known awarded pieces CEJ, meybauer, 835. All silver and beautiful. Better made award than just about any other TR era ones. Now compare the one you show. Quality alone tells the tale. But more than that, why wouldn't it be silver and marked so? The only option that leaves is later private purchase production. Look at all the other later private purchase pieces. Then compare any droop tail. If you are satisfied quality wise now explain why late pieces have a droop tail. Explain the lack of period pics. Explain the lack of awarded groups Explain the set ups on them.. These have no chance of being real. Unless some different high quality actual silver pieces with a decent set up turn up , this is a complete waste of time. If anyone thinks these droop tails have a chance of being good, then one can make a case for any crap fake badge we have ever encountered in collecting. this defies all logic. The only piece of evidence in this entire subject that is worth considering so far is the image on the next of kin boxes. This makes a slight implication that PERHAPS the original design of the SC MIGHT have been drawn up with a droop tail pattern. More likely the company that made the box had the designer draw it and he simply made a rendition with artistic license. I can't see even starting a thread like this without a cross that is of quality and set up worth considering. There could be such a cross. I have never seen one yet. If anyone has one please post it. But I think it will be a long long wait. We are discussing the possibility of the originality of a badge no one has ever seen in essence. Not much to go on.

[Sal Williams]

Maybe there are droop tail diamonds versions that are real too? Anything is possible

[Don D.]

From what I've seen over the years, people that own these want them to be real (especially now with the price of things) and people who don't own them, or owned them long ago and learned they were fakes, are happy now to call them fakes. The same goes for many other high priced TR fakes like Balloon Badges, Aircraft destruction Strips, RKs, etc... Perhaps if we keep chanting they are real then one day they will become so.

[Don D.]

Of course for those who honestly believe they are real, I would buy as many as possible while they are still considered fakes, at fake prices, before talking them into being good.

[Leroy]

Sal, I hope you understand that I was NOT saying that the badge I posted was wartime. It most assuredly is not. Nor am I saying these badges provably existed during the war.

I own several original SK's of all classes (except the Diamonds!) and can tell you that this badge, in hand, has the weight and quality of die strike of a wartime badge. It you saw it in person, you would agree. If it had the later-style eagles and correct pin, catch, hinge assembly, it would be accepted as a wartime badge. Of course, it does NOT have those things and I do not believe that it is wartime.

I believe that it is at least silver-plated. If it was actual silver, I would expect a mark and I do not see one.

The truth is, we have no idea if "droop-tail" versions were made in limited quantities or not. As you indicated, none (that we know of here) has surfaced in an established group. Neither has one ever been positively identified in a photo (again, that we know of here). The box of the Next-of-Kin award makes me believe that SOMEONE thought this cross was going to have droop-tail eagles and so I won't rule them out ENTIRELY. As I said at the beginning of this, I have never handled one which I believed to be wartime.

PERHAPS some one, because this thread was started, MIGHT come forward with one with a correct set-up. If we don't ask, we won't find out. So, I will keep an open mind about these. I want the same evidence you want. MAYBE we will get it someday, maybe we won't. Until then, I'm willing to be patient.

[Leroy]

Perhaps if we keep chanting they are real then one day they will become so.

Who is "chanting" that, Don?

[Don D.]

Leroy, just a general observation.

[Leroy]

Thank you, Don.

Having an open mind doesn't mean you are open to buying the Brooklyn Bridge!

[Sal Williams]

Sal, I hope you understand that I was NOT saying that the badge I posted was wartime. It most assuredly is not. Nor am I saying these badges provably existed during the war.

I own several original SK's of all classes (except the Diamonds!) and can tell you that this badge, in hand, has the weight and quality of die strike of a wartime badge. It you saw it in person, you would agree. If it had the later-style eagles and correct pin, catch, hinge assembly, it would be accepted as a wartime badge. Of course, it does NOT have those things and I do not believe that it is wartime.

I believe that it is at least silver-plated. If it was actual silver, I would expect a mark and I do not see one.

The truth is, we have no idea if "droop-tail" versions were made in limited quantities or not. As you indicated, none (that we know of here) has surfaced in an established group. Neither has one ever been positively identified in a photo (again, that we know of here). The box of the Next-of-Kin award makes me believe that SOMEONE thought this cross was going to have droop-tail eagles and so I won't rule them out ENTIRELY. As I said at the beginning of this, I have never handled one which I believed to be wartime.

PERHAPS some one, because this thread was started, MIGHT come forward with one with a correct set-up. If we don't ask, we won't find out. So, I will keep an open mind about these. I want the same evidence you want. MAYBE we will get it someday, maybe we won't. Until then, I'm willing to be patient.

Leroy, what I am getting at is this is not even similar to the 800/4 RK situation (as an example). Those have quality and the ground is murky about cut off times for production. There is something to be said for having an open mind with those and waiting for some sort of proof. These are just plain fantasy. No use waiting for something that most likely doesn't exist. At such time as a photo or a quality award or a very iron clad provenance piece comes along there is no real use waiting for it. I can just as well wait for the SSsuperkillertrippleskulluboatnuclearmissleoperato rbadge. It most likely doesn't exist. If one came up there would be a point to discussing it. If it doesn't all one is talking about is fantasy.

[Leroy]

Sal,
Until some PROOF comes along, these ARE fantasy pieces and I am agreeing with you. My personal opinion is only that there is a CHANCE that a real one will surface and I base that on: 1.) the Next-of-Kin box design, and 2.)(as strange as this may sound) the fact that some "fakes" using the droop-tail design were produced using very nice dies (but wrong hinge, etc.) when everyone (including the fakers) knew exactly what a "real" one looked like (from the front). Why even waste time using a totally "wrong" eagle which would instantly condemn the fake (like putting a "W" in the middle of a 1939 dated EK)? So.....I'll believe they were produced wartime when I see one I would trust (correct metal, correct die characteristics, correct hinge, pin and catch). It just won't be a surprise to me if this occurs one day.
Regards,
Leroy

[Sal Williams]

Leroy, it would surprise me, and I won't hold my breath.

best, Sal

[Leroy]

Sal, I'm not holding my breath either! Looking at the prices people pay for crap on eBay has already taken away what little breath I had left.
Leroy

[Don D.]

That is the truth.