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**Rich G** · 03-13-2003, 05:12 AM

Tim

Can't agree with that simply because of the early Spanish Crosses marked CEJ and they were instituted in 1939.

Rich

**Mike Kenny** · 03-13-2003, 05:26 AM

Hi Tim,

I don't have my references with me for X-checking, so I'm going from the date of institution of the Spanish Cross as April 1939 as written on the Wehrmacht-Awards.com page. As far as I know, there are genuine examples (and very good repros of course) of the Spanish Cross marked with CEJ in the box, hence my 1939 dating (1940 is pushing the use of the marking for me personally). The same marking was used as early as 1933/34, as it's found on "Hindenburg" crosses and of course the LW Aircrew Badge, which gives this style of marking (possibly produced using a single example of the punch/stamp) a 5-6 year period of use in my books. Some LW badges (eg LW Para and FLyer's Commemerative) were instituted pre-'39 but I don't recall ever seeing them marked with the CEJ in the box - maybe someone else has?

Regards
Mike K

**François SAEZ** · 03-13-2003, 07:00 AM

Same for Flyer's Commemerative badge than for the glider ones, no CEJ, only C.E. Juncker

I agree with Rich for the Spanish Cross

**Tim Calvert** · 03-13-2003, 04:25 PM

This whole "Not drinking while posting" thing doesn't work for me!

Seriously though: So the CEJ mark and the C.E. Juncker mark must've been used concurrently.... don't you agree?

**François SAEZ** · 03-13-2003, 05:12 PM

No, as Spanish Crosses by Juncker are marked:
900
CEJ 900
L/12
L/12 900

BUT never C.E.Juncker

= they were not used concurrently

**Mike Kenny** · 03-13-2003, 07:26 PM

Hi Tim,

On Spanish Crosses, no, not concurrently. On SOME LW qualification badges I'd say they probably were used concurrently - ie the C.E. Juncker... marking was being used before the CEJ in a box marking was finally phased out. I think the CEJ and CE Juncker.... markings may only have been used interchangeably on LW PO, Pilot, Observer (ONLY possible on first pattern wreaths - ie thin wreaths) and Air Gunner Badges. As I indicated above, I've never seen the boxed CEJ marking on some early (1936) instituted badges, although I'm not writing off the possibility that there might be eg a genuine LW Para with a period CEJ marking out there somewhere. A Commemerative Flyer's Badge would be another story - speculating - these are so rare that probably only one nickel-silver run was ever made and all would probably have been marked the same way (ie C.E. Juncker Berlin SW).

Regards
Mike K

PS: have another drink - I wish I could!

**Tim Calvert** · 03-14-2003, 02:00 PM

Thanks Mike, that's what I meant. I would find it hard to believe that all the early luft badges marked C.E. Juncker Berlin SW were made late '39 or after.

For the fun of it....regarding the SC...

"Condors" started showing up in Spain in August 1936.
I'll bet Uncle Addie started to make plans for a big ceremony as soon as the conflict came to a close. Not knowing how long it would last, is it not possible that the SC was developed and produced before being "officially" instituted?

Perhaps the CEJ marked crosses were designed in late '36 and a production run marked CEJ were made for approval then shelved awaiting the end of the conflict.

Possible?? No??

**Tim Calvert** · 03-14-2003, 04:51 PM

Anybody out there have an Observer marked "CEJ"????
(in a box)

**IVAN** · 03-14-2003, 05:25 PM

Originally posted by Tim Calvert
Anybody out there have an Observer marked "CEJ"????
(in a box)

I have seen early and very early Juncker observers marked C.E.JUNCK...... or unmarked, not CEJ as I remember. the same for para badges.

for me cannot be mixed hallmark in Spanish crosses and LW badges. two different way.

Ivan

**Mike Kenny** · 03-14-2003, 06:07 PM

Hi Tim,

I'm sure I've seen an image of a genuine first pattern Juncker Observer marked CEJ in the box, but don't ask me to find the pics (and therefore I may be remembering incorrectly)!

Interesting point about pre-production of the Spanish Crosses. The main Legion Condor parade took place only a few months after the award was instituted and, from memory, those entitled to the awards wore them to the parade (don't ask me if all awards had been bestowed however, I'm sure there's a Legion Condor specialist who could answer that around here somewhere though). Given the number of the awards, it's hard to imagine all having been produced and awarded in such a short time period. Then again, would a company produce hundreds of examples of an award that had not been officially instituted - doesn't sound like good business practice. Would the military have placed an order for an award that had not officially been sanctioned, even if a design was available?

Does anybody know if Doehle or Klietmann (or anyone else) mentions a date for the design of the award (as opposed to the institution date)??

Regards
Mike K

**François SAEZ** · 03-14-2003, 06:36 PM

Institution was 14.4.1939

**W. C. Stump** · 03-14-2003, 07:08 PM

SPANISH CROSSES AWARDED

The Condor Legion arrived back in Germany, at Hamburg, on May 30, 1939. 99 % of all awards of the Spanish Cross were passed out to the returning legionnaires by June 4 on the fields of Doberitz, out side of Hamburg. At the Victory Parade in Berlin on June 7, 1939 ALL members of the Legion wore their Spanish Crosses as they marched in review .

**bergrenner** · 03-14-2003, 07:21 PM

Well, if production didn't begin before institution, then the Germans were even more efficient then we give them credit for.

Another possible scenario on this matter would be that the CEJ stamp was committed to the Spanish Cross production(if such a thing was ever done with Juncker). Let's not forget about the absence of CEJ on the Army para, which was instituted in late 37. Or does anyone know of an original one marked CEJ? Just a thought.

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