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**Stepdale** · 07-15-2016, 06:58 PM

My turn to eat crow and apologize for any snottiness I may have portrayed in my post. Unfortunately, though I enjoy the forensic approach of others, I lack the proper equipment to do so myself as my calipers and scales are older than many of the members of this forum and not very precise.

For what it's worth, my ball hinge glider has the common silver wire catch while both of my flaks have the flat wire catch, so any measurements I could provide wouldn't be of much help anyway.
Dale

**Leroy** · 07-15-2016, 07:05 PM

Pin diameter: 1.25 mm (measured on round area, top next to hinge is flattened and tapered - see photo)

Attached Files

**Leroy** · 07-15-2016, 07:08 PM

Catch

Attached Files

pin715d.jpg (201.1 KB, 135 views)

**e-maus** · 07-16-2016, 03:54 AM

I am an even worse photographer. Specifications my Glider :
Weight: 22,67 g
Height of wreath: 59,47 mm /together with the swastika/
Wingspan: 53,81 mm
Width of wreath: 41,89 mm
Pin diameter: 1.16 mm

ps: in annex comparison Ball Hinge. Their transverse dimensions:
Glider 4,72 mm
Lw Flak 4,66 mm
IAB 4,43 mm

Jacek

**Leroy** · 07-16-2016, 06:26 AM

I am starting to believe that there are not only copies of this badge in the marketplace, but also that the "real" ones, if they do in fact exist, may have been made, separately, by both die-striking and die-casting. I re-read Hugh Brock's nice article in IMC last night, compared his measurements to those posted here, and can't reconcile the differences observed in weight, height, etc..

It's been my understanding (and I hope that Tom and others will chime in) that die-casting , because of the shrinkage during the cooling process, results in badges which are "off" by at least (and sometimes more) a millimeter. Is this, in fact, correct?

The version shown by Hugh was heavily silver-plated and there was "bubbling" characteristic of the zinc base. His conjecture was that it was made in 1942-43. Are there "later versions" made by a different method? (Just a reminder: the LW badge market, in October-November, 1944, "opened up", resulting in the possibility of more manufacturing. Even the Retired Pilot was included in the new commercial guidelines.)

All very strange to me.

On a side note, I do wish that all the personal "back and forth" would be eliminated from this thread.

**Sebastien T** · 07-16-2016, 06:45 AM

Please guys, keep this thread on the ball hinge glider topic.

Thanks

Seb

**Brian S** · 07-16-2016, 10:05 AM

Originally posted by Sebastien T View Post

Also another good sign these are war time is that they also come with the two variants of catch. The ball hinge flak as well as the glider badge come with the silver wire catch but also with the less common flat wire catch.

Seb

Post 174 example looks very well done. Do you have more of this one?

**chrisje110** · 07-16-2016, 01:07 PM

Please guys, lets stick to what the badge itself can tell us. Lets leave all the personal BS at home and stop wasting a very interesting topic.

**Sebastien T** · 07-16-2016, 01:08 PM

Originally posted by Brian S View Post

Post 174 example looks very well done. Do you have more of this one?

Yes here's the badge. Beated up one with tightened rivets and new hinge and pin but the catch is on his original state.

Discussed here:

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=676521

Seb

Attached Files

image.jpeg (126.5 KB, 167 views)

**Leroy** · 07-16-2016, 01:59 PM

A request: Can everyone who has a ball-hinge glider please post dimensions and weight? A database would be useful.

**Thomas Durante** · 07-17-2016, 10:46 AM

Originally posted by Leroy View Post

I am starting to believe that there are not only copies of this badge in the marketplace, but also that the "real" ones, if they do in fact exist, may have been made, separately, by both die-striking and die-casting. I re-read Hugh Brock's nice article in IMC last night, compared his measurements to those posted here, and can't reconcile the differences observed in weight, height, etc..

It's been my understanding (and I hope that Tom and others will chime in) that die-casting , because of the shrinkage during the cooling process, results in badges which are "off" by at least (and sometimes more) a millimeter. Is this, in fact, correct?

Hi guys,

Gentry, there is no doubt that a casting will be smaller than an original that a mould was made from. And yes, in my experience there is typically 1 milimmeter or more in difference between sizes. One thing that you have to keep in mind is that there will be slight differences in the people taking the measurements. For the comparison to be accurate, the measurements have to always be taken at the same spot on the wreath. The caliper also has to be calibrated. These two issues can show differences in 1 mm so it really is crucial to try to take all the measurements by one person using the same caliper set. I suspect that the difference you are seeing with Hugh's measurements compared to yours might be an anomoly because the badge Hugh shows in his article looks 100% consistent with all the other ball hinge gliders show in this thread (same hinge, catch, pin, rivets, bubbling finish, obverse detailing, etc.).

The consistency between ball hinge gliders examples shown here as well as their rarity in the marketplace are still two of the major positives it has for me considering them wartime.

Chris, I have to say that I am quite disappointed in your comments about how you acquired your badge. You post #39 states this: "The NZ veteran I got mine from had 20 different badges.". This statement is very disingenious because it makes it sound like you got the badge directly from the vet, and it infers that you talked to him about his experiences. Instead you got it from his widow, and there is a big difference here. In reality you acquired your badge 2nd or even third hand if you got it from the dealer. Since you didn't talk to the vet directly, you have no idea where or when he got the badge, period. He was admittedly a member of a vet group and he could have easily traded it with one of those members or even bought it as a reproduction in the 1960s as a rememberance of his "time in the war". The fact is you have no idea how he got the badge.

Its examples like this why collectors like me put so little value in vet stories...

This does not take away from my liking the Ball hinge glider. Discounting a vet account does remove an element of originality for me, however I never place much emphasis on that anyway so it doesn't really change my view of them. The forensics are much more important to me, and there is nothing on these badges that says postwar to me. Forensically they are perfectly in line with other Gablonz-based products and as Pavel mentioned above, postwar gablonz production was impossible due to its location.

Tom

**Brian S** · 07-17-2016, 10:52 AM

Originally posted by Thomas Durante View Post

Forensically they are perfectly in line with other Gablonz-based products and as Pavel mentioned above, postwar gablonz production was impossible due to its location.

Tom

What about buckets of leftover parts? We've seen it in daggers. Why not a bucket of ball hinges picked up by a faker? It's possible. Some of the reverse look good and some just look put together badly. I don't see a consistency in construction especially at the hinge attachment.

**Thomas Durante** · 07-17-2016, 12:32 PM

Originally posted by Brian S View Post

What about buckets of leftover parts? We've seen it in daggers. Why not a bucket of ball hinges picked up by a faker? It's possible. Some of the reverse look good and some just look put together badly.

Sure Brian, anything is possible. But is it probable? In this case, for me the answer is no. Simply because Gablonz was in complete chaos immediately after the war. Almost its entire population was forced out and had to relocate because it was 90% German. Also the fact that it fell in the Russian zone and by all accounts the Russian soldiers were not as enamored with nazi souveniers as their American brethren were. For these reasons I think postwar fake production in Gablonz was non-existant. Quite a different story in Ludenscheid where S&L was located.

As far as a faker finding a basket of leftover ball hinges. Sure that is possible, but again not likely as far as I am concerned. If this were the case, why wouldn't the faker simply just solder on the ball hinge to the back of a fake badge? That would be the simple answer, but that is not what we see here. The ball is neatly crimped into the reverse. So is the catch, completely in line with wartime Gablonz production as evidenced by countless CCCs, Flak badges, numbered GABs & PABs, etc. The badges are also copper coated under the finish, why would a faker go though that extra step on a fake badge? Things like this just don't add up for me on a fake badge.

As to the maker, I think Adolf Scholze or AS in Triangle are more likely candidates then RK. RK was quite consistent in marking their later-war zinc badges. The ball hinge glider would certainly fit this category so I would suspect that if RK were the maker they would have included their initials IMO.

One last thing, if anyone is still skeptical of the Gablonz connection, check out the M. Kunstoff bomber clasps (courtesy of Richard Fleming's excellent collection). The rivet is crudely snipped off in the exact same fashion as what we see on the ball hinge gliders. A bit more forensic evidence pointing to Gablonz (and wartime too IMO).

Tom

Attached Files

**andrei1774** · 07-17-2016, 07:17 PM

Originally posted by Leroy View Post

A request: Can everyone who has a ball-hinge glider please post dimensions and weight? A database would be useful.

Here is mine:
Weight: 22.7 g
Height of wreath: 56.9 mm (with the swastika)
Width of wreath: 42.69 mm
Wingspan: 53.69 mm
Pin diameter: 1.16 mm (flattened side) 1.30 mm (round spot)
Ball hinge: 4.6 mm
Catch wire: 1.25

Attached Files

**e-maus** · 07-18-2016, 01:45 AM

I'm sorry. In a post # 210 I wrote Floch instead of Stiegemeier
Jacek

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