HSF with diamonds

[Patrick W]

Hi Guys,

Got this interesting piece through which I know is post war produced- it is actually very nicely made and appears to be genuine silver- I was wondering if anyone could tell me who produced this type as I am sure I have seen it before as the squashed down wings are pretty distinctive- is this an earlier Souval effort?

Many thanks for any thoughts!

Patrick

[Patrick W]

###

[Norm F]

Hi Patrick,

Well that's a mystery. It's not the Souval design. In fact, only once before have we ever seen that particular obverse design and that's the "Juncker-like" Fleet badge seen in the classification thread here:
https://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/for...41#post7639441

That "800" marked badge seems crudely manufactured, and it's odd that from the front it looks like the top of the ship was hacked out to insert the swastika whereas from the back the oversized swastika appears integral to the planchet.

I honestly don't know what to make of this badge and it makes me wonder about the non-diamonds version as well.

Best regards,
---Norm

[Patrick W]

Hi Norm,

Wow that is very interesting! I had missed the Juncker badge thread but have to say from the images everything about that badge screams late war Juncker production right down to the tooling mark on the pin.

This diamonds badge is actually much better work that it would appear in the pictures- having examined it under a loupe it is definitely die struck to the obverse- there are minute striations and stippling that are part of the die cut to give texture to the ship that can't be seen on photos but are there and I would bet they are on that zinc piece also.

Also see the downward curve of the left wing when seen from the reverse evident on both badges- so must be from the same die. I worked out where I had seen that effect previously and it is on silver diamonds 2nd pattern E-boat badges.

The construction method for this badge is tricky to work out- my best guess is as follows.

- The obverse was struck in silver from the 'Juncker' die and had a slightly scooped/ vaulted reverse as seen on the zinc badge.

- The top of the ship was cut out to receive the larger swastika.

- A reverse plate was added which incorporated a backing for the swastika.

-The diamonds were attached to the top of this and then hardware added.

The swastika is clearly a separate piece but I can find no trace of a soldered edge to the rim of the badge as it has all been hand filed and finished,but it would make sense to explain the slightly soft look from the reverse and also the recess around the 800 stamp.

The badge does look and feel to be completely made of silver and there are lots of tiny nicks and scratches which would suggest this is the case- also it weighs an absolute tonne!-- 49.8g!

Measurements

Top to bottom 55.5mm
Wing tips across 32mm
Wreath across middle 44mm

The catch and 800 stamp do have a Juncker look to them, I will see if I can find any matches- I now wonder whether this may be some kind of trial produced piece??

[Jos L C]

Pretty bad job, I would say..

[upbeek]

It’s interesting to see evidence coming forward ,
The fact it matches the fleet badge Norm shows is a red flag for that mysterious badge,
I would like to examine that zinc badge to see if there is any clues in it

Kind regards Chay

[upbeek]

Patrick
Your recent finds look like some have a connection to the juncker factory , RK,APB,Fleet ,
I wasn’t aware of Juncker using parts or manufacturing after the war ended ?
I see similarities in the hinges and pins

[Norm F]

The plot thickens. There's also an uncommon type of zinc Minesweeper badge, the so-called "Juncker-style" which is MC #6.1 in the classification system (two examples attached), which also has a counterpart in the same design with diamonds. The zinc Minesweepers have the same pin system and tooling marks as the "Juncker-like" Fleet badge.

The Minesweeper diamonds badges of that design are made similarly to that Fleet badge but with variations in hardware. Three examples are shown in Klaus Patzwall's article on the Minesweeper badge with diamonds from Militaria magazine in 2010, and for some reason in that article he described two of them as believable (both marked "800") but declared the third one of the same design to be a copy! I've attached images from the article of one that he thought was believable and this is my attempted translation of his description:

"Korvettenkapitän Claus-Henning von Grumbkow - The story of this badge with diamonds attributed to the chief of the 1st minesweeping flotilla is strange. In 1986 v.Grumbkow sold his entire military papers and awards for so little money to a collector that a fraud intent is ruled out. The latter could not classify this badge and consulted therefore all relevant archives, without success. He consulted Dr. Klietmann, who likewise in his research found nothing, and then in a report, because of that and because the stones were judged by an jeweller to be unusually bad, classified the piece as probably not original. After that, I got all the documents. A contact to the then 88-year-old v.Grumbkow did not do much. He briefly confirmed the facts, but refused further information, did not want to be reminded of the war. He supposedly received the diamond badge in autumn 1944 after the award of the German Cross in gold. However, he owned neither the Knight's Cross nor the Oak Leaves."

I know this just raises more questions rather than answering them, but it's all interesting, and goes back at least to 1986. I would say the Grumbkow Minesweeper badge is from the same source as that Fleet badge with diamonds, but unfortunately the provenance is far from adequate as proof of wartime production.

Best regards,
---Norm

[Norm F]

Patrick
Your recent finds look like some have a connection to the juncker factory , RK,APB,Fleet ,
I wasn’t aware of Juncker using parts or manufacturing after the war ended ?
I see similarities in the hinges and pins

That's a good point. Patrick, is the diamonds badge from the same old collection as your BKAs posted here: http://wehrmacht-awards.com/forums/s...35#post8441735?

Anything else you can share from that find and its history?

Best regards,
---Norm

[Yubari]

it looks as a skilled jeweler work IMO

[Patrick W]

Well I wasn't expecting this when I picked up this badge and posted it!

Firstly I will say that in my opinion both the zinc HSF and minesweeper are not just Juncker style but could be said to be made by Juncker with absolute certainty from the pin setups and finish- there are enough badges amongst army and Luftwaffe awards that are known to be made by Juncker that share these same pins, marks, finishes etc.

It is interesting that on the closeup of the minesweeper eagle you can see the small striations in the die- my badge has similar marks- you can just see some in the close-ups of the eagle in my poor photos.

The Grumbkow badge is absolutely made by the same people or person, interesting to see the original bright gold finish which has been heavily polished away on my piece. The ship also would have been grey but has polished down- only traces remain of the dark finish. The set swastika is also done the same- the stones look poor on my piece too, they look more like set chips than properly cut stones. If pre May 45 this wouldn't be unique by any means - Goering, who had a keen eye for quality, considered Adolf Galland's awarded diamonds to be poor in quality so commissioned a better set to be made.

Unfortunately I don't have any story behind this piece or the others I have picked up recently. They came out of a massive deceased collection over here that has been sold over the course of several auctions- some amazing stuff in there and lots of repros too.

Is any photo known of Grumbkow wearing this badge? The plume is very unique in design and I know there is a wartime picture of a similar diamonds minesweeper being worn with a strange plume design?

[Norm F]

Hi Patrick,

Firstly I will say that in my opinion both the zinc HSF and minesweeper are not just Juncker style but could be said to be made by Juncker with absolute certainty from the pin setups and finish- there are enough badges amongst army and Luftwaffe awards that are known to be made by Juncker that share these same pins, marks, finishes etc.

Yes, these badges show typical Juncker characteristics, but it's still best to use the term "Juncker-attributed" rather then the hyperbolic "absolute certainty" descriptor. Likewise in the art and antique world "attributed" is the correct term for unmarked works.

It is interesting that on the closeup of the minesweeper eagle you can see the small striations in the die- my badge has similar marks- you can just see some in the close-ups of the eagle in my poor photos.

Yes, those fine concentric striations as seen on both the zinc and the Diamond Minesweepers of this design, another indicator they are from the same maker.

...the stones look poor on my piece too, they look more like set chips than properly cut stones. If pre May 45 this wouldn't be unique by any means - Goering, who had a keen eye for quality, considered Adolf Galland's awarded diamonds to be poor in quality so commissioned a better set to be made.

Likewise, the Schwerin U-Boat and S-Boat diamonds badges and the Juncker-attributed Hilfskreuzer utilize diamond fragments rather than brilliant cut stones.

Is any photo known of Grumbkow wearing this badge? The plume is very unique in design and I know there is a wartime picture of a similar diamonds minesweeper being worn with a strange plume design?

No, the "Grumbkow" Minesweeper comes only with the story provided by Patzwall in the previous post, and actually it's odd since he didn't even have a Knight cross, let alone Oakleaves which were supposed to be the prerequisite for this honour. The only ironclad period proof of the Minesweeper badge with Diamonds is the May 3, 1944 "Die Deutsche Wochenschau" which shows low resolution footage of Gerhard von Kamptz wearing his diamonds badge. It is indeed a similar outline, but each badge is hand cut differently from the next. The problem is there are two different Minesweeper with Diamonds designs, as you can see in this comparison. The badge on the left is the one attributed to Karl Friedrich Brill, whereas the one on the right is the type that matches the "Juncker-Design" zincer. Mind you, my working theory (and it's just a theory) for the Juncker Minesweeper is that dies for the well-known Juncker Minesweeper design of early wartime mass production were either consumed or destroyed by bombing so that the "Juncker-style" came into being in later wartime; this is suggested not only by the hardware but by the observation that although the obverse design is different, the same trimming outlines are seen on both suggesting a shared tooling source. If that was indeed the case, then one could also postulate two different obverse designs for a Juncker Minesweeper with diamonds -- the first (like the Brill badge) with a wave and water plume design close to Juncker's old Minesweeper design and the second (like the Grumbkow) with the same design as the "Juncker-style" zincer.

Best regards,
---Norm

[upbeek]

Unfortunately I don't have any story behind this piece or the others I have picked up recently. They came out of a massive deceased collection over here that has been sold over the course of several auctions- some amazing stuff in there and lots of repros too.

I thought that was the case

[Norm F]

The other thing we have to keep in mind is that Juncker continued in the medal business until the mid-1960’s in Berlin, making the Bundesverdienstkreuz among other things. We have no idea what tooling they retained until that time, whether salvaged from their bombed Alte Jakobstrasse site or created thereafter.

All that is to say, rare badges with or without diamonds showing up in the 1980s in veteran’s estates or old collections and bearing forensic clues pointing back to Juncker still lack proof of being wartime produced. The time period between 1945 and 1965 remains unaccounted for as well as the unknown fate of the Juncker tooling after that time.

And there is still no evidence for any legitimate recipient of a Fleet badge with Diamonds during wartime.

Best regards,
—-Norm

[upbeek]

Thank you Norm,
This is interesting news,
I never thought of it like that, so there is so much more to process here !


Kind regards Chay