HSF with diamonds

[Norm F]

Curiouser and curiouser...I just noticed that the fragments are mismatched in the Andreas Thies auction photo. The eagle that was placed with the U-Boat badge actually belongs to the Fleet badge, and the wreath/eagle fragment that was placed with the Fleet badge is actually from another Minesweeper badge. So the photo is missing the U-Boat eagle and the rest of a Minesweeper -- perhaps the other fragments were discarded over the years.

[Norm F]

Connecting a few more dots; the Minesweeper badge with Diamonds on display in the Hamburg Maritime Museum, as seen in this photo from John Robinson when he visited there in 2015, is the "Grumbkow badge" described in Patzwall's article in 2010.

[Norm F]

Now we get to something odd in Patzwall's article. On page 184 he shows what he describes as a jeweller's reproduction. However, when you compare to the Grumbkow badge on the very next page, the two are of identical construction to one another aside from the lack of the "800" stamp. Not only are the swastikas identical in construction but they both show the concentric circular striations on the obverse described earlier.

In my opinion these two Minesweeper badges (which I call Type 3) are from the same source and so are either both genuine or both fake. But if they are both fake, then the disturbing implication is that all the striated badges are fake. I don't think we should jump to conclusions either way just yet.

[Norm F]

Also in Patzwall's article is the badge attributed to Korvettenkapitän Palmgreen, Oakleaves July 11, 1944. He describes the provenance for this type as "believable" and supported by Klietmann, but no further details given.

This is the same type as the one offered in the 2008 Andreas Thies auction with the story of being found at war's end in the naval offices in Mürwick (image attached).

I call this variant "Type 2", characterized by a smaller swastika with more diamonds than the Type 3, square illumination holes, slightly convex reverse, "800" marked pin and a more robust catch.

[Norm F]

The "Type 1" is the one attributed to Korvettenkapitän d.R. Friedrich Brill (posthumous Oakleaves November 18 1943) which has a different obverse die with a different wave pattern than the Type 2 and Type 3. Unfortunately, there is no published photo of the reverse of this badge to see the hardware.

It is supposedly earlier than the Type 2 and Type 3, and like the Type 2 has more diamonds (4 in each arm whereas the Type 3 has only 2 in each arm).

If taken at face value as being the earlier design, one might assume that the first Minesweeper with diamonds badge, awarded to Korvettenkapitän Gerhard von Kamptz (Oakleaves Apr 10, 1943) and seen in Die Deutsche Wochenshau in May 1944, was also the same design, but no one knows what happened to that badge.

So in the end, we're left with 3 variants of Minesweeper with Diamonds and some question as to whether they were all wartime, although it's actually the Type 3 with the round illumination holes in the swastka that is most similar in construction to the U-Boat badge, Fleet badge, Destroyer Badge and S-Boat badges presented in this thread.

Best regards,
---Norm

[Patrick W]

Hi Norm,

I must take my hat off to you- an absolutely fascinating developing thread and surely the first time that all these badges have been linked up in this manner.

The variety amongst the minesweepers is very interesting- it looks like the water plumes were manually adapted to the aesthetic whim of the craftsman, hence all different and that would account for the unique look of the badge in the period film also.

I need to sit for an hour or so and thoroughly absorb the information!

Also great to see the finish on the hacked up HSF from Thies- now I know how my badge would have looked prior to the years of heavy polishing it has evidently undergone.

So if I get this right- the minesweepers with diamonds that you have classified- the type 2 and type 3 are both from the 'Juncker' die with the type 2's at least having something more of a wartime provenance?

[Norm F]

So if I get this right- the minesweepers with diamonds that you have classified- the type 2 and type 3 are both from the 'Juncker' die with the type 2's at least having something more of a wartime provenance?

Hi Patrick,

That's more or less correct but it depends on what you're calling the "Juncker" die. Presumably they're all Juncker-attributed dies but for the Minesweepers with diamonds there are two different obverse designs -- the first seen in the Type 1 and the second seen in both Type 2 and Type 3. The latter design is what you're calling the "Juncker" die with the concentric circular striations, a design we have traditionally called "Juncker-style" when it comes to regular Minesweepers and for which all forensic indicators point towards it being a late wartime Juncker design.

However, the Type 1 diamonds badge is presumably also a "Juncker" die in that it's based upon the earlier, more traditional Juncker Minesweeper design. Although the eagle is different, the wreath and wave pattern is clearly based upon the traditional Juncker-attributed early wartime design.

I'll illustrate the two wave patterns here. The first image contrasts the traditional early wartime Juncker tombak Minesweeper with the presumably late wartime zinc Juncker-attributed Minesweepers with the concentric circular striations. The second image shows a comparison between the Type 1 (early or Brill) diamonds badge and the Type 2 (later or Palmgreen) diamonds badge. You can see homology between the wave pattern 1 and the Type 1 diamonds badge and between wave pattern 2 and Type 2 diamonds badges.

In both cases, to make the diamonds badge die someone started with the conventional Minesweeper die and modified the design to make the new silver badge but retained the basic wave and explosion plume pattern. Then, to accommodate the large diamond encrusted swastika, the top of the explosion plume was cut down by hand, creating a unique outline of the water plume on each diamonds badge.

Best regards,
---Norm

[Norm F]

The first image contrasts the traditional early wartime Juncker tombak Minesweeper with the presumably late wartime zinc Juncker-attributed Minesweepers with the concentric circular striations.

BTW, for what it's worth, the zinc badge used in that comparison came from a German collector who acquired it in a grouping with a 1944 document and photo album. If they were always together, the time frame sounds about right.

Best regards,
---Norm

[Jeff V]

Fantastic thread Norm!
Incredible that for a badge hardly ever awarded there would be so many variations. I will keep an open but slightly skeptical mind.

[Norm F]

I will keep an open but slightly skeptical mind.

That’s the best kind!

I’m somewhat impressed with all the forensic links to Juncker’s tooling but still wonder greatly about what could have gone on there in the post-war period.

And I’m puzzled over the existence of the U-Boat and S-Boat diamonds badges of this series. We have pretty well established “official” Schwerin production for these two (for want of a better term since of course all KM diamonds badges were an unofficial pet project of Raeder). Enough of the Schwerin U-Boat and S-Boat diamonds badges are confirmed so that there was no real reason or room for a second manufacturer.

Having said that, both Schwerin and Juncker had a special working relationship with the Kriegsmarine both pre- and during wartime, so perhaps they were both contracted in the beginning and Schwerin won out over time in those two categories?

But I’ve scratched my head over the one intact U-boat badge in this series with an accompanying story of supposedly belonging to Guggenberger (Oakleaves January 1943). There were documented recipients of the Schwerin U-Boat with diamonds both before and after Guggenberger so why a Juncker for him? Possibly a bogus story or possibly a “spare” private purchase badge one could buy if desired? Too much we don’t understand at present.

Best regards,
—-Norm

[Norm F]

Hey, here's something interesting. I was looking at Klietmann's Auzeichnungen des Deutschen Reiches (first published 1981) and Nimmergut's Deutsche Orden und Ehrenzeichen (2001) and just realized that an obverse photo of Patrick's actual badge from the opening post is included in both references!

Translation from Klietmann: "... after the awarding of the Knight's Cross with Oak Leaves, only Admiral Theodor Krancke, Marine Group Commander West (October 18, 1944) would have been eligible for such a Naval War Badge with diamonds. After several confirmations, however, Admiral Krancke never received the fleet war badge with diamonds.
On the other hand, such a badge existed in a British private collection, which is undoubtedly a contemporary original. It remains unclear whether it is a never awarded piece or whether yet a previously unknown award has taken place."

Although Klietmann says "unzweifelhaft ein zeitgenössiches Original", no supporting evidence is provided. That reference book was first published in 1981, but Patzwall referenced Klietmann making this claim as early as 1971 in Deutsche Auszeichnungen, volume 2. I don't have the earlier Klietmann work to verify.

Nimmergut has a caption "Sammlung [collection of] Dr. Hynes, London", although the layout of that page is confusing so that's it's not quite clear if the caption applies to that image or the badge beside it.

[upbeek]

Some great research there Norm wow!
And I wonder what timeline one would put on the zinc badges of this type they look like it’s the workmanship of post bombing raid?

Kind regards Chay

[Norm F]

And I wonder what timeline one would put on the zinc badges of this type they look like it’s the workmanship of post bombing raid?

Kind regards Chay

Yes, like the Diamonds badges, anytime between 1944 and 1971 when first described by Klietmann. Anecdotal evidence places the zincers as early as 1944.

Interestingly, Klietmann's reference books mention examples of the diamond versions of the U-Boat (albeit Schwerin), Fleet badge, S-Boat and Auxiliary Cruiser by 1971 but he never mentions the existence of the Minesweeper or Destroyer, despite the fact that the original footage in Die Deutsche Wochenschau proves the wartime existence of the Minesweeper with diamonds.

The fact that Dr. Klietmann was skeptical when he first encountered the "Grumbkow" Minesweeper in the 1980s at least shows he wasn't complicit in any diamonds badge schemes and is a credible source.

Best regards,
---Norm

[upbeek]

Thank you Norm,
Top information!
A very interesting topic you have covered

Kind regards Chay

[Patrick W]

Hi Norm

Wow! There it is! You are correct absolutely the same piece! I will try and get hold of a copy of the 1971 Klietmann book and see how it is referenced in that, unless anyone reading this thread has a copy?

The badge was obtained here in the UK, not from London but in 40 years it may have changed hands a few times.

Just regarding your earlier answer to Chay- Juncker was bombed out in Feb 1945 as far as I am aware which ended their wartime production, so the zinc badges must pre-date the bombing unless we suggest they are all post war produced?