U-Boat Meissen Plates

[Michael Everett]

Another Find!

Gents, enjoy

[Stan]

Wonderful

Is the Schultze plate going to be auctioned?

Stan

[Michael Everett]

Auction

Stan,

It will not,

Michael

[Pierre]

This beautiful plate is/was in the amazing Schultze grouping which was for sale in Kassel.

Pierre

[Stan]

Interesting!

What else was in the grouping and who was selling it?

Stan

[compressore]

expensive

This beautiful plate is/was in the amazing Schultze grouping which was for sale in Kassel.

Pierre

yes, amazing group. Asking price was 65000 Euro, I think he sold for 60.000.
The was an KM admirals visor, his KM frock coat, pour le merites (2), albums, flags. DKiS award doc, admirals promotion doc in large red leather folder etc......

[Pierre]

I am probably forgetting other items but to complete Compressore's post:

WWI + WWII versions of the "Pour le Mérite" crosses + document
WWI U-Boot badge + document
Ehrendolch der Kriegsmarine award document + case (empty)
the DKiS was in the rare small size case.
Kustenartillerie badge

The lucky seller had in fact the Schultze Family groupings which included:
the father Otto Schultze (Generaladmiral and commander of the U 63 during WWI)
and his sons
Kapitänleutnant Heinz-Otto Schultze (KC holder)
Kapitänleutnant Wolfgang Schultze
Oberleutnant zur See Rudolf Schultze

The KC holder son's Mappe was there, I think that there was an other Meissen plate, one Raeder silver framed dedicated photo (to the KC holder son or to the father?), a regular KM dagger + a great album both belonging to the KC holder son. And I think 2 overseas caps (with emblems) which belonged to Wolfgang and Rudolf.

Correct me if I am wrong.
Each grouping was for sale separately.


Pierre

[John R.]

Ratisbons has this one for sale in their current auction:

"GENERALADMIRAL SCHULTZE - PERSONAL MEISSEN PLATE

Description
Important porcelain plate to Generaladmiral Otto Schultze, recipient of the Pour le Mérite and the German Cross in silver. Schultze was also awarded the Kriegsmarine Honor Dagger. His and his son’s groupings turned up just lately and to our information were never available on the market. The groupings originally also contained documents of Generaladmiral Schulze as well as the case for his Kriegsmarine Honor Dagger which unfortunately are not for sale at this moment.
Please see other lots in this auction for his son's grouping.

Personal and unique porcelain plate named to "Herrn Generaladmiral Schultze". Given by the TRADITIONSVERBAND U-BOOTE in or slightly after 1942. Schultze was a member of that Verband as he was a U-Boot commander during WW1.
The plate is from fantastic quality and comes in excellent condition 1. It shows a U-Boot to the center and laurel surrounding the scene. A Pour le Mérite to the top, WW1 and WW2 U-Boot War Badges to the left and right side and a Knight's Cross with Oak Leaves to the bottom.

The reverse is marked and comes with the typical MEISSEN maker mark.

No chips or damage. Diameter: 25,3cm. Condition 1."

[Meister30799]

Meissen - Teller

Adolf Piening

[Stan]

Here's another one being offered by Helmut Weitze awarded to Schonder.

[Norm F]

As a running tally, here is a list of fourteen Meissen Traditionsverband U-Boote plates that have been posted here or elsewhere to date:

Admiral Bauer
Kapitänleutnant Cremer
Kapitänleutnant Folkers
Kapitänleutnant Jenisch
Kapitänleutnant Kuppisch
Korvettenkapitän Merten
Kapitänleutnant Müller-Stöckheim
Korvettenkapitän Piening
Kapitänleutnant Schonder
Kapitänleutnant Schneider
Kapitänleutnant Schultze
Generaladmiral Schultze
Kapitänleutnant Trojer
Kapitänleutnant Helmuth [sic] Witte
Kapitänleutnant Würdemann

Here are the Schneider plate (from Hermann Historica) and the Jenisch plate from the collection of Michael Everett.

[Norm F]

Kapitänleutnant Helmuth [sic] Witte

This one is puzzling. I don't have good pictures but it's depicted in "Wer treu gedient hat" by G. Duwe, published 1985. The two odd things here are the inclusion of a first name which is not seen on any of the other plates of this series and also the spelling of "Helmuth" with an "h" when most other sources don't have an "h".

[Norm F]

Could we clarify the types of markings on the reverse?

I gather from what's been posted so far, they seem to have three markings on the reverse (images attached from the Generaladmiral Schultze plate):

1) The blue double swords logo which is part of the glaze
2) The Werksnummer "N117" pressed into the ceramic
3) Another 3-digit number pressed into the ceramic

I presume the Meissen company records could explain the specific meaning behind the numbers, but I notice they don't seem to be in order of the recipient's Knight crosses. For example, Würdemann got his Knight's cross on March 14, 1943 and the plate is marked 135 while Folkers got his Knight's cross earlier on Jan 16, 1943 and the plate is marked 152. (I'm just going by written descriptions, not actual photos.)

Also the number marked on the Generaladmiral Schultze plate also looks like 152, supposedly the same number on the Folkers plate, although maybe I'm reading it wrong? Can anyone explain the meaning of these numbers?

Best regards,
---Norm

[Norm F]

Mike just posted some answers in a parallel thread

The “N” number on the reverse of Meissen Unit plates refers to the diameter size. “N117”, which is impressed on the reverse of most Meissen Imperial and TR plates, correlates to the standard size of 25,5 cm. The smaller plates, feature a different number. This is also referred to as the model number (werkstadtnummer).

Mike

Not sure if perhaps it should Werkstattnummer rather than Werkstadtnummer? Or more typically just Werksnummer?

The Second number incised to the reverse of Meißen plates is the “thrower’s number” and refers to the potter who shaped the porcelain. As this was considered an “entry level skill set” at the time, many were employed performing this basic task. Some of the same regimental plates will have different throwers’ numbers based on their production run. The U-Boat plates had a relatively long production run, this would explain the different throwers’ numbers. Many also refer to this as the kiln number.

Great information there.

[TorpedoLos]

Another wrinkle - unless I’m missing something - it’s Jenisch, not Fenisch. But I agree that the plate certainly seems to spell out the latter. Unless it’s some sort of stylized J that I’m just not familiar with.

Thanks for keeping this thread alive, Norm. Weitze had one of these plates in the past several months but I can’t sitting here recall which one.

This one is puzzling. I don't have good pictures but it's depicted in "Wer treu gedient hat" by G. Duwe, published 1985. The two odd things here are the inclusion of a first name which is not seen on any of the other plates of this series and also the spelling of "Helmuth" with an "h" when most other sources don't have an "h".