Hilfskreuzer Badge with Diamonds - is it real?

[Norm F]

Here again is the "Souval-like" Hilfskreuzer with Diamonds, this time from a 1979 article about the collection of Gayle W. Dinsmore. Can't tell if it's the same example as one we've seen before but certainly the same type.

So far we've seen at least three examples:
1) Dodkins/Forman 1987/Wolf-Hardin to the present day/Lumsden published 2001/Ailsby published 2007/Williamson published 2010 (in other words, the badge that's made the rounds the most)
2) Weber & Skora 2011/(probably the same from Sepp's post from the unknown publication labelled "from Michael Xilas Museum Collection") in post #35
3) Anthony's example from post #8

and now this one.

Best regards,
---Norm

[Norm F]

The photo suffers from poor resolution, but still able to see its the same type of badge as the Dodkins/Forman/W-H example.

[Norm F]

I can't remember the origin of that picture but I will look up into it

In fact, that badge in post #35 is from Angolia's "Die Kriegsmarine", volume 2, page 114 and Michael Xilas was/is (?) a collector from England I believe. Also, from the reverse view (although some of the photo background was incompletely cut out) it's definitely the same example that was depicted in Weber/Skora on page 947 (where it is duly noted that there are no claims of originality).

[Joe Slavick]

Hilfskreuzer Badge with Diamonds - is it real?

Hi Stan,

Thanks for that interesting information. Could you expand a bit on Col Dodkins -- is there any earlier provenance to the piece?

I agree, the catch is not a "red flag' per se since indeed that same type was used in wartime (although it's somewhat different from the Juncker catch -- different bevel and more curled). I was just pointing out that it was also used on some early post-war Souval "diamond" badges and therefore is not exclusive to wartime.

Again I don't rule out wartime production, but the fact remains it's a very different design from the Rogge badge, and very different in style from the diamond U-Boat and S-Boat badges which are both apparently from Schwerin (the S-Boat with far shakier provenance).

If the Dodkins piece (and Anthony's) were wartime then that means either a) the Rogge badge from the late Don Frailey's collection was a fake or b) there were two entirely different makers approached by Raeder for the production of a small handful of custom awards. For now, to me, the Frailey badge better matches my expectation of a wartime style, and the "second gunman" theory seems less likely (albeit not impossible). Also the obverse design appears to have been based upon Souval -- an unlikely maker to approach for such an award, and an unlikely badge to be used as the model for this prestige item.

For now, without better provenance, we cannot confidently differentiate between late wartime and 1950's production, nor can we say if any of the four Oak Leaves recipients who theoretically qualified for the badge every owned a badge of this type.

Best regards,
---Norm

Norm: just a small point. Don photographed Rogge's badge during a visit to Rogge's home in ~1977. It was not in Don's collection.

Joe


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[Norm F]

Norm: just a small point. Don photographed Rogge's badge during a visit to Rogge's home in ~1977. It was not in Don's collection.

Joe

Excellent information. Thanks Joe.

Best regards,
---Norm

[Inspector Krogh]

These photos (previously posted in this thread) are from the cover of a sales pamphlet of offerings by Adrian Forman. The ends of the string seen in the images are fastened by a lead seal. This was how Forman marked his imprimatur of authenticity on an item. I think the seals simply had the letter "F" on them. Haven't seen one of those things in a long, long time.
I am going to make what I think is a pretty good guess - that the pamphlet dates from the mid to late 1980's. I received them for a while after purchasing Vern Bowen's Iron Cross book from him, which was at the time, recently published . I think he charged a "subscription" fee for the catalogs, that weren't but a few pages, but sometimes had actual photo's such as these affixed to them.
I can't remember if he claimed the badge was Rogge's, but I don't think so. The old noggin is fuzzy on that.
The photo's are from Forman for sure. (Can't remember a name, but never forget a face syndrome).
Perhaps one of our colleagues has a copy of said catalog?

Regards,
G.

[Norm F]

These photos (previously posted in this thread) are from the cover of a sales pamphlet of offerings by Adrian Forman. The ends of the string seen in the images are fastened by a lead seal. This was how Forman marked his imprimatur of authenticity on an item. I think the seals simply had the letter "F" on them. Haven't seen one of those things in a long, long time.

Regards,
G.

Thanks G.

Between you and Stan we now have a pretty good tracing of that particular one-piece badge from Lieutenant Colonel Dodkins to Adrian Forman to Wolfe-Hardin from the 1980s onwards. What's not known is where Dodkins got it so it really has no provenance, not to mention it's entirely different from Rogge's 2-piece HK with diamonds and the old Klietmann photo.

In my opinion, there should be only one make of "genuine" HK with Diamonds and that's Rogge's. The diamond badges were a pet project of Admiral Raeder and no other so there's really no room for conjecture about some other commission late in the war.

Best regards,
---Norm

[Norm F]

It's also worth noting in this thread, the list of KM Auxiliary Cruiser commanders who received the Oakleaves and were therefore theoretically eligible for Raeder's gift of the AC badge with diamonds. Chronologically they were:

1) Kapitän zur See Ernst-Felix Krüder, commander of Pinguin (HSK-5) - KIA May 8, 1941. OL posthumously Nov 15, 1941. According to Klietmann, his widow did not receive the AC badge with diamonds.

2) Kapitän zur See Bernhard Rogge, commander of Atlantis (HSK-2) - OL Dec 31, 1941. According to Klietmann's correspondence with Rogge, he received the AC badge with diamonds in January, 1942.

3) Kapitän zur See d.R. Helmuth von Ruckteschell, commander of Widder (HSK 3) and Michel (HSK 9) - OL Dec 23, 1942. He is the only officer other than Rogge whose qualifications make him look like a serious candidate for the award, but he refused the Naval Command’s order to take Widder to Hamburg in 1942 and instead assumed command of the Michel in Mar, 1942, later relieved in Japan for health reasons -- perhaps affecting his chances? At any rate, according to Klietmann, he never received the AC badge with diamonds.

4) Konteradmiral Otto Kohler - OL Sept 15, 1944 as commander of fortress Brest. He had commanded Thor (HSK 4) much earlier during her first cruise in 1940-41. According to Klietmann, he never received the HK with Diamonds which makes sense in view of how late his OL were awarded.

For cross reference, the first known recipient of Raeder’s U-Boat badge with diamonds was to Endrass on July 18, 1941 and the latest was to Carl Emmermann October 1, 1943 which seems to mark the end of the "Diamond badge era".

Best regards,
---Norm

[Norm F]

Here's something quite interesting. It turns out Jörg Nimmergut's massive work "Deutsche Orden und Ehrenzeichen" from 2001 shows on pages 2370-71 the same photo that was published without details by Klietmann earlier in 1981. The photo has the dark background deleted which mars the outlines of the badge, something that Nimmergut does a lot in that publication. But this time he also shows the reverse of this 2-piece badge showing a "900" stamp and riveted construction and provides further details:

“Das Exemplar wurde von Vizeadmiral a.D. Rogge am 5.3.1958 zu Fotozwecken übersandt. Patzwall bildet ein zeitgenössisches Exemplar mit Schraubscheibe, diese aus Silber, ab und bezeichnet ein Exemplar mit geschwärzter Nadel als Nachkriegsfertigung. Das Exemplar von Kapitän z.S. Rogge befand sich in einem Etui (80,0 x 95,0 mm), außen marineblau und innen mit königsbaudem Samt bezogen.”

"The example was sent by Vice-admiral Rogge on Mar 5, 1958 for photographing. Patzwall (1987) depicts a period example made of silver with screwback, and identifies an example with blackened needle as post-war manufacture. The example from Kapitän zur See Rogge was in a navy blue etui (80 x 95 mm) with royal velvet interior."

Also interesting is the description:

"Das Hakenkreuz ist mit 15 einzeln gefaßten Diamanten besetzt. Die Fassungen sind rückseitig offen, um de sehr kleinen Steine (Splitter) besser zur Geltung zu bringen."

"The swastika is set with 15 individually fastened diamonds. The frames are open on the back to better show off the very small stones (fragments)."

This means the diamonds were uncut fragments which is the same as found on the diamonds U-Boat badges and quite unlike the one-piece "Souval-like" badges discussed earlier which instead contain gem-cut stones.

Quite intriguing. Taking all the pieces of the story at face value, it appears that Rogge's 2-piece badge originally had the straight wide pin as photographed in 1958 and sometime between then and the 1970's when Don Frailey visited Rogge it was converted by a jeweller to a screwback setup.

Best regards,
---Norm

[Norm F]

I'm updating this reference thread with the info provided by Sepp in the recent thread about the Andreas Thies auction of this badge.

The same badge pictured in the books by Nimmergut and Klietmann is now up for auction and is clearly a separate example from the screw-back badge photographed by the late Don Frailey during his visit to Rogge in the 1970's. So it does indeed appear that Rogge owned two diamonds badge of this type --- the one with the wide pin setup originally photographed in 1958 and now up for auction and the one with the screwback photographed in the 1970s. According to Andreas Thies the screwback example is now in Peter Tamm's private Maritime Museum in Hamburg.

All evidence suggests this type is the only true Hilfskreuzer with Diamonds and all others are reproductions. I further believe, based upon the design and construction features, that this was likely a Juncker product.

Here are the photos of this rare badge for future reference.

Best regards,
---Norm

[Norm F]

more

[Norm F]

the description from the auction and the case.

"Auxiliary cruiser war badge in diamonds - personal copy of the Hilfskreuzerkommandant Bernhard Rogge. Silver, partially gold plated, the globe
patinated in old silver. The swastika of the national eagle occupied with 15 cut diamonds. The setting on the back "à jour" (hand sawn).
On needle. On the back silver stamp "900". The separately applied globe attached with round rivet.
In the original case with blue linen cover and embossed gold side edge, similar to the cases for oak leaves with swords and diamonds.
Inner part with blue velvet insert, the inner cover with white artificial silk lining.
This badge is the original one awarded to Bernhard Rogge. Rogge had another piece with a back screw, which is today in the naval museum of newspaper magnate Peter Tamm in Hamburg."

[Norm F]

For comparison, the Thies auction photo side-by-side with the 1958 photo which published by both Nimmergut and Klietmann. There are 60 years of aging between these two photos.

Bear in mind that Nimmergut edited out the dark background of the original 1958 photo causing some distortion of the margins; the Klietmann version retains the dark background and is a truer representation.

Best regards,
---Norm

[Norm F]

the description from the auction...

"Rogge had another piece with a back screw, which is today in the naval museum of newspaper magnate Peter Tamm in Hamburg."

kfs posted a photo in the other thread from the Hamburg Maritime Museum showing the screwback example in February 2015. These two photos are almost 40 years apart.

Interesting to follow the journey of these rare pieces of history.

Best regards,
---Norm