Hilfskreuzer Badge with Diamonds - is it real?

[John T]

HI Norm,

Great memory, yes that is it.

John

[Norm F]

And just to re-state, I'm not saying the Wolfe-Hardin/Lumsden/Williamson/Weber-Skora badge is definitely a post-war Souval -- only that it's not the only example of its kind, it matches the Souval obverse design, differs from the Rogge piece and stylistically is less convincing than the Rogge piece. Beyond that we have no evidence one way or the other.

Best regards,
---Norm

[Sepp45]

Great analysis Norm! Fantastic and well done

Here's another.. of the same type?

[Norm F]

Here's another.. of the same type?

Yes, indeed, same type. What reference is that from and does it show a picture of the reverse?

Best regards,
---Norm

[Stan]

Norm,

I happen to like the bevelled catch on the Wolfe-Hardin HK piece very much. It is a typical Juncker feature and should not be considered a red flag.

Th W-H piece was formerly in Col Dodkins collection which was auctioned in 1987 and bought by Adrian Forman. I have inspected it several times and still consider it an original piece.

Stan

[Norm F]

I happen to like the bevelled catch on the Wolfe-Hardin HK piece very much. It is a typical Juncker feature and should not be considered a red flag.

Th W-H piece was formerly in Col Dodkins collection which was auctioned in 1987 and bought by Adrian Forman. I have inspected it several times and still consider it an original piece.

Hi Stan,

Thanks for that interesting information. Could you expand a bit on Col Dodkins -- is there any earlier provenance to the piece?

I agree, the catch is not a "red flag' per se since indeed that same type was used in wartime (although it's somewhat different from the Juncker catch -- different bevel and more curled). I was just pointing out that it was also used on some early post-war Souval "diamond" badges and therefore is not exclusive to wartime.

Again I don't rule out wartime production, but the fact remains it's a very different design from the Rogge badge, and very different in style from the diamond U-Boat and S-Boat badges which are both apparently from Schwerin (the S-Boat with far shakier provenance).

If the Dodkins piece (and Anthony's) were wartime then that means either a) the Rogge badge from the late Don Frailey's collection was a fake or b) there were two entirely different makers approached by Raeder for the production of a small handful of custom awards. For now, to me, the Frailey badge better matches my expectation of a wartime style, and the "second gunman" theory seems less likely (albeit not impossible). Also the obverse design appears to have been based upon Souval -- an unlikely maker to approach for such an award, and an unlikely badge to be used as the model for this prestige item.

For now, without better provenance, we cannot confidently differentiate between late wartime and 1950's production, nor can we say if any of the four Oak Leaves recipients who theoretically qualified for the badge every owned a badge of this type.

Best regards,
---Norm

[Stan]

Hi Norm,

Here is the page from the 1987 auction catalogue. It has to be said that Dodkin's collection did contain some fakes.

Rumour has it that Dodkins acquired many of his pieces whilst stationed in Berlin at the end of WWII. Where he obtained this particular badge from, I do not know.

This HK badge was bought by AF for £4,300 plus 10% commission.

Stan

[Norm F]

Here is the page from the 1987 auction catalogue.

Thanks Stan. Very interesting to see that catalog image. That was obviously the same image Lumsden put in his book 14 years later, so those two are certainly the same badge.

However, it's now also clear that the Dodkin/Lumsden badge is a separate example from the Wolfe-Hardin piece. You can see the how different the colour of the reverse is compared to the Wolfe-Hardin photo. That could partly be differences it lighting or photo processing but you can also see tiny differences in the trimming outlines showing these are two separate badges.

Best regards,
---Norm

[Norm F]

Here's another image of the Wolfe-Hardin badge from Gordon Williamson's "War Badges of the Kriegsmarine", 2010. Again, it's a different badge from the Dodkin badge but they're obviously from the same tooling. The surface texture and same surface flaws look more cast than struck to me (although it's hard to be definitive).

[Norm F]

Here's the example from Weber/Skora "The Kriegsmarine Awards, 2011. Not high resolution images but still this appears to be yet another example.

That would mean we've seen four examples now of this type:
1) Dodkin/Lumsden
2) Wolfe-Hardin/Williamson
3) Weber&Skora
4) Anthony's former badge

[Norm F]

I agree, the catch is not a "red flag' per se since indeed that same type was used in wartime (although it's somewhat different from the Juncker catch -- different bevel and more curled). I was just pointing out that it was also used on some early post-war Souval "diamond" badges and therefore is not exclusive to wartime.

Here's another example of a post-war Souval diamonds badge with that curled round-wire catch with the bevelled ends.

[Sepp45]

Yes, indeed, same type. What reference is that from and does it show a picture of the reverse?

Best regards,
---Norm

I can't remember the origin of that picture but I will look up into it

[Stan]

Norm,

I remain convinced that the Dodkins badge and the Wolfe-Hardin piece are the same badge.

Whilst the reverse shot does have differences, I think this is merely a problem with the photo.

Stan

[Norm F]

I remain convinced that the Dodkins badge and the Wolfe-Hardin piece are the same badge.

Whilst the reverse shot does have differences, I think this is merely a problem with the photo.

Stan

The differences are more than just physical lighting and camera angles, but certainly the catalog image could have been altered. Perhaps if the reverse shot from the auction catalog were air-brushed and converted to B&W?

Even if that turned out to be the case, there are still 3 distinct examples and potentially a fourth in the publication shown by Sepp.

Best regards,
---Norm

[chrisje110]

With one official awardee, why would you make more then one badge ? Might be a stupid question, but I was wondering about it !