Insanity?

[Alex Bolotnikov]

Not insanity but just a marketing) The rarity of Schwerin AC is strongly exaggerated but... If the people are ready to pay - why not...

[Stoppelhopser]

@ Bruce - good point, sir! I absolutely agree.

[kokstok]

And this week we proceed with a cased para for only €4500,-

[Jelle M.]

Yes....but the thin deumer para is ten times more rare than the Schwerin aux.

[Jeff V]

Everything is incredibly rare. We have done it to ourselves I'm afraid. Classification systems are great for the collector but the flip side is dealers see badge variation 1.2.2.6.4 and they know they just have to ask more money.

[Norm F]

Everything is incredibly rare. We have done it to ourselves I'm afraid. Classification systems are great for the collector but the flip side is dealers see badge variation 1.2.2.6.4 and they know they just have to ask more money.

Hm. I'm unaware of any classification system for Auxiliary Cruiser badges. Schwerin AC badges are just shiny awards that have become strangely popular and expensive. There are ridiculous prices for SS items as well -- again not based upon arcane classification systems.

There's nothing about a classification system that increases the value of a badge, but it does, to some extent, help us recognize what we are seeing.

Best regards,
---Norm

[Jeff V]

Hm. I'm unaware of any classification system for Auxiliary Cruiser badges. Schwerin AC badges are just shiny awards that have become strangely popular and expensive. There are ridiculous prices for SS items as well -- again not based upon arcane classification systems.

There's nothing about a classification system that increases the value of a badge, but it does, to some extent, help us recognize what we are seeing.

Best regards,
---Norm

Dealers use our classification of the different makers and variants within the makers to charge more money regularly. My point is by breaking down every badge into multiple sub groups and then variations within those groups is gives the dealers license to say how "rare" a badge is.

[BubbaZ]

Hi Jeff,
We do not have any 'rarity mark' in the reference tables hence I do not see the reason why describing different variations of original badges and putting them into classification system could let dealers rise the prices?

I suppose that they learn from those classification systems, as everyone else and as from many other sources, and for example may take adventage of the fact that many unmarked badges are now attributed to certain makers, and having such knowledge they can differentiate prices of unmarked badges based on maker's rarity. But there's nothing wrong about it IMO.
Cheers,
Hubert

[Norm F]

Hi Jeff,
We do not have any 'rarity mark' in the reference tables hence I do not see the reason why describing different variations of original badges and putting them into classification system could let dealers rise the prices?

I agree with Hubert. A classification number is just a term of reference. Whether you call a badge a "rare Beco" or "MC# 2.4.1" it's going to have the same value. Dealers watching our admiration for a badge on the forums might affect the value, but giving it a classification number shouldn't.

And if I get interested in whether the dome-head hinge pin is on the right or the left of a hinge block has zero effect on dealers and values, just like there's no difference in price between a grey iPhone and a white iPhone with different stock numbers.

Best regards,
---Norm

[John R.]

The rarity of Schwerin AC is strongly exaggerated but... If the people are ready to pay - why not...

Simply not true IMO. The AC badge has always been popular with the Schwerin at the top of that list. It is rare to find unless you have spotted them someplace that I have not. 10 years ago, you could not find any for sale anywhere except by buying them from another collector. My first came from Frank Hukemes and I had been looking for a number of years for one prior to that.

To say stongly exaggerated is not correct, nor even mildly exaggerated. I have studied this forum's history and made a list of every single tombak SB AC badge ever posted and it is not many--Norm and I used that list when we worked on the KM Awards books published by Dietrich to see if there was in fact differences in those badges (there are).

As you spot them for sale Alex, let us know here so we can check it out. It would be interesting.

John

[John R.]

Everything is incredibly rare. We have done it to ourselves I'm afraid. Classification systems are great for the collector but the flip side is dealers see badge variation 1.2.2.6.4 and they know they just have to ask more money.

Jeff is correct IMO plus he is jokng about the nomenclature system we have developed. Come on, lighten up a bit.

That said, Norm's work has been incredibly helpful to collectors and the hobby and I think it outweighs by any standard the increase in price that a dealer might assign to a badge that in previous years was listed for sale as "unknown maker".

There is a flip side to everything maybe, drugs can help in the recovery of a patient but the flip side might be unpleasant side effects, temporary or not.

So the flip side described by Jeff is not 50-50, but probably 90-10 where the benefit to the collector is 90 and the loss to the collector due to an increased price is 10.

The badges he is talking about are not the well known examples in tombak that have always commanded decent prices but the unmarked zinc examples that we never could assign a maker.

IMO, so what if an umarked zincer has gone up 30% or 50%--better to the collector to have a better idea who the maker might be than the old "unknown maker" assignment.

I am not sure the prices have even gone up that much assigning a maker anyway, but the worst example of price increase due to maker assignment has not been with zinc badges IMO. It is the assignment by dealers of Juncker AC badges to Schwerin. Still going on. Both badges are nice, but the SB commands a higher price than a Juncker since a Juncker in the past has always been relatively easy to find as opposed to a SB AC example.

Even a nice Junker AC badge is not that common anymore. Disappearing into collections of course.

John

[John R.]

Schwerin AC badges are just shiny awards that have become strangely popular and expensive.

Norm, expensive cars are just shiny "babe magnets" by middle aged men too. Nothing is new or strange under the sun about "shiny" or flamboyant acquisitions, but of course, you do not collect AC badges.

Nothing strange at all about their popularity and it is not a recent event, the AC badge has always been desired and there is no reason to wonder why they are or the prices they command.

Of course, your minesweeper badges are not strange at all, far from shiny, and inexpensive. Correct? Nothing odd about wanting a L/6, L/7, L/8, L/9, L/10 marked example at all.

The hobby is like any other hobby and those that do not collect in a particular collecting field always think the person that does is crazy--you name the collectible.

John

[John R.]

Hi Jeff,
We do not have any 'rarity mark' in the reference tables hence I do not see the reason why describing different variations of original badges and putting them into classification system could let dealers rise the prices?

I suppose that they learn from those classification systems, as everyone else and as from many other sources, and for example may take adventage of the fact that many unmarked badges are now attributed to certain makers, and having such knowledge they can differentiate prices of unmarked badges based on maker's rarity. But there's nothing wrong about it IMO.
Cheers,
Hubert

I agree completely with Hubert. John

[Norm F]

I am not sure the prices have even gone up that much assigning a maker anyway, but the worst example of price increase due to maker assignment has not been with zinc badges IMO. It is the assignment by dealers of Juncker AC badges to Schwerin. Still going on. Both badges are nice, but the SB commands a higher price than a Juncker since a Juncker has always been relatively easy to find as opposed to a SB AC example.

That's a good point regarding how incorrect notions pre-classification may cause over-valuing.

The badges he is talking about are not the well known examples in tombak that have always commanded decent prices but the unmarked zinc examples that we never could assign a maker.

And again, I don't think classifying a previously unmarked zincer increases value. The unmarked S&L zinc Minesweeper, MC#2.5.5, used be called a "fine wartime badge, possibly F&B". Today, the more accurate view of this common zincer even points out that S&L assembled badges post-war and this badge is nothing special -- no value advantage there. The "flatback" Minesweeper is now a "Rettenmaier-attributed" which makes it equally suspect since Rettenmaier continued in business post-war and the badges are still just as unattractive. And whether it's assigned a maker or not, giving it classification number 2.13.1 doesn't increase it's value.

So the flip side described by Jeff is not 50-50, but probably 90-10 where the benefit to the collector is 90 and the loss to the collector due to an increased price is 10.

I agree with this statement.

Best regards,
---Norm

[Norm F]

Nothing strange at all about their popularity and it is not a recent event, the AC badge has always been desired and there is no reason to wonder why they are or the prices they command.

Quite right, I should not have used the wording "strangely popular". It was only strange to me in the same way high fashion might be strange to someone with Asberger's.

Best regards,
---Norm