Several years I posted this and got a thumbs up. But I have no idea from the sub identification photos which this could be. ??? Help, thanks.
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Hi Brian,
It's the so-called "French-made" U-Boat and often goes by the misnomer "Bacqueville" -- certainly non-regulation and whether wartime or not remains controversial, but as far as they go that's a nice example of the type.
Here are some more examples:
http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...33#post4545733
and here's the epic thread debating their pros and cons:
http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...ad.php?t=42901
Best regards,
---NormComment
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Hi Brian,
It is a french souvenir, so-called Bacqueville.
Oops... while I wrote, Norm already to you responded)Comment
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That remains to be seen... A lot of people believe in these as wartime. I have no opinion but souvenir would imply otherwise.Originally posted by OST View PostComment
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Thank you Norm. Looks like ten years ago I knew that...Originally posted by Norm F View Post
Some pretty heavy hitters believe in these;
http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...ad.php?t=42901Comment
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Not just you Brian. Everyone.Originally posted by Brian S View PostMe, after ten years: NFC.
I'll take the liberty of quoting some comments I made recently on another forum:
The so-called "French-made" zincers (a preferable term to "Bacqueville") are an endless source of debate and controversy because of the lack of hard evidence combined with their bizarre styling. There is no hard evidence on either side of the debate so in the end it becomes a poll of faith.
What we know for sure:
1) They are old. Current old-time collector anecdotes go back at least to 1970 for picking these up, so we can rule out the zincers being made after that date.
2) They certainly would have been against regulation which we know from period published Präsidialkanzlei announcements forbidding even the sale of German military awards by firms of occupied countries, let alone their manufacture.
3) They are die struck in zinc and show a production style and consistent packaging that is far more elaborate than any known fake Kriegsmarine badges.
4) They have in turn been targeted by fakers (as shown in the other thread).
Beyond that there are various competing anecdotes about 1) a hoard from a Navy office in Paris released slowly after the war, 2) the Bacqueville connection, denied by the company itself and 3) fakes commissioned by an unnamed notorious faker -- none of which have any corroborating proof unfortunately. And we generally toss in the observations that they don't appear in German vet groupings, nor in eastern block nations prior to fall of the wall in 1989.
The lack of a Minesweeper badge has been noted as well but we can take that off the list since one was discovered in an old collection recently and which I acquired and studied. (I had hoped to remain immune from the "Bacqueville" controversy since I only collect Minesweepers but I was denied that blissful ignorance.) The Minesweeper, despite a different type of catch, clearly shows the same construction and aging as the usual so-called "French-made" badges. I've attached some photos showing this badge and a closeup showing the shear marks from the die strike and the surprisingly robust quality plating. The hollow bubbling under the silver plate is genuine as was revealed by scraping one off.
Personally I don't believe these badges were made in the early post-war period after May, 1945 for occupied forces. The equivalent process going on in Germany and Vienna at that time was dealing in wartime leftovers and post-war finishing of wartime components, not master die making and striking of completely new designs. Early post-war economies did not favour the manufacture of whole new tool sets.
For me the two polarized scenarios that remain are: 1) wartime zinc production by a French company with or without a contract hoping to cash in on the German occupation but failing because they were ultimately deemed to be against regulations and therefore stored away for the duration of the war or 2) an elaborate post-war hoax from the late 1960's but with an attention to quality, detail and packaging not rivalled since that time.
The fact is none of the most "famous" KM badge fakes (Cave Creek Specials, "Cyclops", "Frank & Reif", f.o/R.S.S. fake Tombaks, "Schwerin" Blockade Breaker sets, Staegemeirs, etc. etc.) come anywhere near the complexity of producing a complete line of zinc die struck badges with a consistent aesthetic, high quality silvered plating and consistent packaging. This is what sets the "French-made" badges a tier above any known fake.
As such, I believe they are still collectible but one has to live with that uncertainty that is enough to turn off many collectors, and the prices dealers ask are in many cases ludicrous.
Best regards,
---NormLast edited by Norm F; 06-30-2014, 11:53 AM.Comment
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Seems entirely possible this is the stick to specifically stifle this French maker before they went any further. Keep their production in the basement.
There would be no need to write this unless there was undesired foreign competition.
"It is categorically undesirable that trading of German medals and decorations be operated by foreign companies. A need for this can not be recognized, as holders of German awards can obtain replacement or secondary pieces without much effort from a company from the Reich. The delivery of German orders, decorations and ribbons to foreign firms must therefore be avoided. In supported exceptional cases, the opinion of the Präsidialkanzlei first must be requested."Comment
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Hi Brian,Originally posted by Brian S View Post
Perhaps, but as mentioned when I first posted that translation, it refers to the "trading of German medals" rather than the "production". But if even the trade by foreign companies was forbidden we can almost certainly extrapolate that the production would have been forbidden as well.
Best regards,
---NormComment
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