Classification of U-Boat Badges based on obverse design

[BubbaZ]

Hi Norm,
Again great work
I have few hot comments after quick going through the table.
1) I think you've missed one F&BL variant, same as 6.1.1. but unmarked, I enclose an example from my collection;
2) did you assume that small maker's marks on Schwerin tombak badges are postwar stamped and thus not to be included in the classification?
3) I think that descriptions of tombak Deumers (except of 3.2.1 which is ok) need some edition (what is solid is not clear);
4) did you assume that type 2 and 3 Junckers where made at the same time but from different dies and thus you have placed unflawed zinc 2.1.7 prior to flawed tombak 2.1.8?
Next comments will follow
Cheers,
Hubert

[Norm F]

Hi Norm,

I have few hot comments after quick going through the table.
1) I think you've missed one F&BL variant, same as 6.1.1. but unmarked, I enclose an example from my collection;
2) did you assume that small maker's marks on Schwerin tombak badges are postwar stamped and thus not to be included in the classification?
3) I think that descriptions of tombak Deumers (except of 3.2.1 which is ok) need some edition (what is solid is not clear);
4) did you assume that type 2 and 3 Junckers where made at the same time but from different dies and thus you have placed unflawed zinc 2.1.7 prior to flawed tombak 2.1.8?
Next comments will follow
Cheers,
Hubert

Hi Hubert,

Thanks for the great suggestions.
1) You're absolutely right. Here's another wide-pinned "unmarked F&BL", so with two examples this meets the requirement for inclusion in the table.
2) Yes, the small Schwerin maker marks are excluded for the reasons covered in the Schwerin classification thread. The same mark was seen on a zinc Deumer so the significance is unknown, and it's not a variation that a collector can realistically hope to seek out.
3) I'll try to clarify the wording of hollow vs. solid in the Deumer description.
4) Although usually in the listing of variations for a maker all the Tombaks are grouped together before all the zincers, in the Juncker classification timeline, there seemed to be overlap between Tombak and zinc production. Both the Type 2 and the Type 3 (Type 3 having the huge hull flaw) occur in both Tombak and zinc and it made sense to keep the unflawed variations together and the flawed variations together. That's why they alternate Tombak, zinc, Tombak, zinc in that particular case. I kept the same order when I ported those variations over into the new classification table. Having said that if you and others think it makes more sense to group them Tombak, Tombak, zinc, zinc, then I'd be happy to change it. It just seem a bit odd to put the flawed Tombak before the unflawed zinc which would be followed by the flawed zinc from the previous die. (Probably clear as mud... )

Best regards,
---Norm

[Norm F]

...I have the books but there are only about 45 or 50 variants in the books.

JAndrew

Hi Guys,

Here's a new version of the table incorporating Hubert's suggestions. Also, I added a column showing which variations were included in "The Kriegsmarine Awards" in volumes I and III. As you can see there is a healthy cross-section represented in the books, covering all makers.

Best regards,
---Norm

P.S. I will keep these images updated to the latest version of the U-Boat Classification Table as changes are made.

[Norm F]

Also, in "The Kriegsmarine Awards" Volume I on page 100 is a zinc "unmarked Mayer" which looks identical to the L/18 marked zinc Type 5 Mayer badges but has a "Lüdenscheid-like" setup with a short block hinge, round-wire main pin and stamped sheet metal catch. I have not yet included this type in the classification table since I haven't seen another example like. If anyone has images of another, please post it, in which case I would add it to the classification table.

Best regards,
---Norm

[BubbaZ]

Hi Norm,
That's really amazing what you've done to clasify u-boat badges
The minesweeper lovers might start to be jealous of your new interest area

Regarding the u-boat table, I have found in my files two other badges that may be included?
First is unmarked tombak Meybauer (enclosed).
Second is hollow Beco with characteristic die flaws.
Cheers,
Hubert

[BubbaZ]

And here is hollow Beco. To tell the truth I have not seen a second like this but having in mind the extreme rarity of this maker I am not surprised Have you or anybody seen another like this?
Cheers,
Hubert

[BubbaZ]

Hi Norm,
Two more comments
1) Wide pin unmarked tombak Hymmens exist also with flat wire catch. Here are the threads:
http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...=hymmen+u-boat
http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...=hymmen+u-boat
2) For the 5.2.2 Beco I would rather say 'flat wire catch' rather than 'square wire catch'. I know that this is small but you named it 'flat' in the KM book, I enclose a shot of this catch on my 5.2.2 Beco u-boat.
Cheers,
Hubert

[Norm F]

Hi Norm,
Two more comments
1) Wide pin unmarked tombak Hymmens exist also with flat wire catch. Here are the threads:
http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...=hymmen+u-boat
http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...=hymmen+u-boat
2) For the 5.2.2 Beco I would rather say 'flat wire catch' rather than 'square wire catch'. I know that this is small but you named it 'flat' in the KM book, I enclose a shot of this catch on my 5.2.2 Beco u-boat.
Cheers,
Hubert

Hi Hubert,

1) The first Hymmen thread you linked shows the typical stamped metal catch, while the second thread shows a catch replacement IMO. I have yet to see unequivocal flat-wire catches on the tombak Hymmens.
2) I agree, I'll change the wording from "square-wire" to "flat-wire".

Best regards,
---Norm

[Norm F]

Regarding the u-boat table, I have found in my files two other badges that may be included?
First is unmarked tombak Meybauer (enclosed).
Second is hollow Beco with characteristic die flaws.
Cheers,
Hubert

Yes, that unmarked early Tombak Meybauer may be included in the future, but we first need to see another unmarked example to ensure it's not a "one-off".

Likewise the hollow Beco, since it's the only one to appear so far, needs corroboration with another example before inclusion in the table.

I'm trying to stick to the rule that there has to be more than one and some reasonable chance for a collector to encounter another before inclusion in the table of variants. I'm still considering the idea of removing the screwback Juncker from the table for that reason and I probably really should remove it, but it was "grandfathered in" from the previous Juncker timeline thread and I keep hoping another will turn up. Probably its days are numbered...it's a good badge to show in a reference book or discussion thread but not really appropriate for the classification table at this point.

Best regards,
---Norm

[BubbaZ]

Hi Hubert,

1) The first Hymmen thread you linked shows the typical stamped metal catch, while the second thread shows a catch replacement IMO. I have yet to see unequivocal flat-wire catches on the tombak Hymmens.

Hi Norm,
This is what I mean by flat wire catch on tombak Hymmens.

I agree about hollow Beco and unmarked Meybauer Let's wait for the second examples.

Cheers,
Hubert

[Norm F]

Hi Norm,
This is what I mean by flat wire catch on tombak Hymmens.

Cheers,
Hubert

Hi Hubert,

I think better photos would tell the story. Here are some photos from the cut pin example you showed. You can see it's actually the typical stamped metal catch.

Best regards,
---Norm

[Norm F]

Hymmen used two different weights of stamped metal catches as you can see on these two Minesweepers. I think this is a similar situation to the two Tombak Hymmen U-Boat badges in the previous photo.

Best regards,
---Norm

[BubbaZ]

Hymmen used two different weights of stamped metal catches as you can see on these two Minesweepers. I think this is a similar situation to the two Tombak Hymmen U-Boat badges in the previous photo.

Best regards,
---Norm

OK Norm, you are surely correct, thanks for the explanation , I forgot about this.
Cheers,
Hubert

[BubbaZ]

Hi Norm,
Here is unmarked zinc Meybauer that my brother found together with other items with metal detector in Swinemunde. We are missing this variant in the classification. Sorry for the bad images, I'll try to provide better pics asap.
Cheers,
Hubert

[Norm F]

Hi Hubert,

Thanks for posting. Certainly looks promising and if so it would be the only unmarked zinc Meybauer I've seen so far, since Meybauer was pretty consistent about marking the U-Boats for the private market.

But we still need to see more than one example of unmarked zincer before inclusion in the table of variants.

Best regards,
---Norm