HSF Badge on estand

[John R.]

Interior trimming styles can create a different look to a period badge. I have numerous badges that are in this category in my collection since I wanted them as examples. I only needed one, but I have quite a few variants right now. I am specifically talking about the Schickle, Mayer, Zimmerman U-boat badges. I have them with sold swastikas, cut out, partially cut out, stamped, not stamped. You name it.

I am a specialty collector so those badges fall into my target area of interest. Same with various Schwerin Berlin products like their U-boat badges and HSF badges. The S-boat second pattern has trimmed and untrimmed flags and swastika and is another example.

If a collector notices a badge that is not exactly like 98% of the others that he has seen, he has every right to ask on this forum what it is and if it is OK. If it falls into his target collecting area then he might buy it, but he has the right to discuss it and those that are considering buying a badge also have the right to know that a particular badge is a variant from what is accepted as usual in that badge's production line.

I am really surprised that some feel this information should be kept secret from a buyer. Give them some credit for what they are looking at. Specialty collectors abound on this forum. I am one, Norm collects every single variant minesweeper out there, Hubert does too. There are a lot of us.

It sounds like some are more concerned about the sale of this badge than the discussion but sales are not the purpose of this forum. Estand is not the driving forum here, discussion forums are. Some have it backwards and while a number of dealer-members just use estand to sell with little contribution elsewhere (I am not talking about Bob who is a prolific contributor), but we know who they are, fortunately we still have members who keep this forum going through discussion posts.

I like Bob, been to his house, shared a drink or two with him, so this has nothing to do with him. If I had been trying to sell a badge on estand and somebody said "not for my collecton" on a discussion thread without explanation, I would be royally irritated. Or the famous "I have doubts".

This is not the case here. This HSF badge has gotten more attention than any in recent memory. I am confident, in spite of the negativity posted here about it not be sellable, that it will sell. Here on this forum, or at a show.

Bob is also armed with all the information on why it looks a tiny bit different in regards to trimming (just like Mayer, Zimmerman, and Schickle) and can more fully explain the badge to the collector who wishes to add it to his collection.

We must resist attempts to shut down discussion just because an item is on estand, being sold by a friend, being sold by a dealer that might have items for sale in the future and now you are on a blacklist (we remember those days), prominent collector, moderator, Life Member, whatever.

My opinion.

John

[greg1878]

I have watched this thread with interest and had the same concerns as others because it was not what we normally come across. It has been well discussed for the right reasons, and the outcome is positive.
However I must echo John's thoughts that if you put something on the estand then you naturally imply that ANYBODY is entitled to start a thread about authenticity, finish etc. That is one of the best tools of this forum, otherwise you can advertise it elsewhere where people cannot ask for expert opinions.
The idea that the KM forum suffers from paranoia is really strange, although my primary collecting area is FJ, this is by far the most friendly, knowledgeable and helpful forum on any of the military forums I have seen IMO.
The nature of this hobby is you sometimes have to take the rough with the smooth and as long as it is done with good intention then you cannot always have it your own way.
It will become detrimental to the hobby if people stopped thinking and asking questions in the fear that they might be criticised, whether the person has been in the hobby 50 years and has 20000 posts or a newbie and 1 post.
Best - Greg

[Leroy]

"obviously an atypical variant..."

"If someone is looking for a common standard variant they should wait for one ..."

"maybe I should buy it myself and incorporate it into my article as an example of ATYPICAL hand finishing..."

"and those that are considering buying a badge also have the right to know that a particular badge is a variant from what is accepted ...


Is this badge such an atypical variant that its basic originality was invisible at first glance???

I am surprised by these comments and can only think that I was not clear earlier (for which I apologize). I was especially surprised by the following comment:

"I am really surprised that some feel this information should be kept secret from a buyer...

Of all the people on this forum, I am the last to which such a comment could be applied (and I have paid the price for that).

I wish you all good luck in the future.

[John R.]

obviously an atypical variant..

Seems to be so, only one we have seen to my knowledge

If someone is looking for a common standard variant they should wait for one

Maybe

maybe I should buy it myself and incorporate it into my article as an example of ATYPICAL hand finishing...

Perhaps

and those that are considering buying a badge also have the right to know that a particular badge is a variant from what is accepted ..

They should have that right I think.

Is this badge such an atypical variant that its basic originality was invisible at first glance???

I would say so and in any case, first glance decisions are not always the best. There is no time limit for members to make a call on a badge.

I am surprised by these comments and can only think that I was not clear earlier (for which I apologize). I was especially surprised by the following comment:

I am really surprised that some feel this information should be kept secret from a buyer...

Of all the people on this forum, I am the last to which such a comment could be applied (and I have paid the price for that).

Not directed at you.

I wish you all good luck in the future.

Thanks, you too.

John

[Terrence]

"It sounds like some are more concerned about the sale of this badge than the discussion but sales are not the purpose of this forum. Estand is not the driving forum here"

Well said!!

Welcome to America where one's opinion becomes worth less and less and the almighty profit runs rule. Sad very sad. I often wish that many dealers would just disappear from this forum.

I second the motion that this is "collectors country." It is the intent of this community!

Terrence

[Thomas Durante]

Hi guys,

I think this thread is getting a bit out of hand.

I see this is a good, healthy discussion of a badge that is not typical. Does it make it fake; no.........and I don't think anyone here is saying that its a fake. Just that it is different. That is a fact and the buyer should know this.

On the other hand, the thought that Bob and/or Leroy is controlled by the all mighty dollar above all else is just flat out incorrect. They are both huge contributors to this forum and to our hobby in general and both have proven in their own ways that they are collectors and researchers first and foremost; and the "dollar" plays second fiddle. I don't think John or Norm is accusing this specifically, but that is how it is coming across and it is unjustified.

I think good intentions on both sides have gotten misconstrued here and a breather is in order.

Tom

[Leroy]

Tom,

Thanks VERY much for your kind comment, which is much appreciated.

I am all in favor of spirited discussion about every piece and Bob certainly "exposed" this badge to such discussion when the badge was posted.

Member 'JAndrew' was perfectly entitled to ask the opinions of others about this badge.

What is concerning to me is that the particular "variances" in this badge have been elevated in this discussion to a level of importance (vis-a-vis having some legitimate bearing on the badge's basic originality) which they neither deserve nor merit, IMO. They are certainly interesting and worth noting, but they should not be something which, if not explained, would condemn the piece.

I could care less about the money side of this hobby and rarely sell anything at all. I am not a dealer (not even to raise money to advance my own collection). I'm just concerned that we have our priorities straight.

Best,
Gentry
("Leroy")

[John R.]

On the other hand, the thought that Bob and/or Leroy is controlled by the all mighty dollar above all else is just flat out incorrect. They are both huge contributors to this forum and to our hobby in general and both have proven in their own ways that they are collectors and researchers first and foremost; and the "dollar" plays second fiddle. I don't think John or Norm is accusing this specifically, but that is how it is coming across and it is unjustified.

I think good intentions on both sides have gotten misconstrued here and a breather is in order.

Nobody has said this Tom. If there is the perception by you, your friends and others that either Norm or myself is accusing this specifically, indirectly, or any other way is just wrong and a gross misrepresentation of this thread. Neither Norm nor myself said it was a fake. Norm said specifically it was period. I have said nothing one way or the other and will wait for weights and measurements, although I feel it is probably period based on its characteristics.

I am not required to make a decision on any badge just because I am a mod. I just keep the thread moving if I can.

I do not think anybody needs a time out, if they wish to post, go ahead, but please make it pertain to the badge and no more drama.

This thread will not be closed, but lets try to keep it on track and on the subject of the badge.

John

[Jeff V]

Leroy makes a great point about "variances." It seems that as the hobby has gotten more and more technical as "this variation and that", sometimes that equates negatively on a badge. In the old days we just worried about is it original and did not worry about the die flaw on the eagles fourth feather from the top and the vein in the oakleaf at the 3 o'clock position. The flip side to this equation is now many badges are a "rare" variation and command a greater price tag.
I do wonder however, if Bob was not the seller of this piece would there be any outcry about how his badge is "unsaleable" now? I doubt it. Fact is, it should not matter who the seller is, the old story " I got it from a vet" does not hold water any more, no matter who says it. The fakes are getting better and better and badges that are not "textbook" do get a higher level of scrutiny, I don't see anything wrong with that.
best wishes,
jeff

[Norm F]

Leroy makes a great point about "variances." It seems that as the hobby has gotten more and more technical as "this variation and that", sometimes that equates negatively on a badge. In the old days we just worried about is it original and did not worry about the die flaw on the eagles fourth feather from the top and the vein in the oakleaf at the 3 o'clock position. The flip side to this equation is now many badges are a "rare" variation and command a greater price tag.
I do wonder however, if Bob was not the seller of this piece would there be any outcry about how his badge is "unsaleable" now? I doubt it. Fact is, it should not matter who the seller is, the old story " I got it from a vet" does not hold water any more, no matter who says it. The fakes are getting better and better and badges that are not "textbook" do get a higher level of scrutiny, I don't see anything wrong with that.
best wishes,
jeff

Hi Jeff,

Those seem like even-handed and pertinent observations.

There is no reason for outcry or high emotions in this discussion. There are no accusations, overt or veiled, in this thread -- simply a discussion of an unusual badge and some surprisingly and unintentionally hurt feelings along the way.

The facts are:
1) The internet is here to stay and has revolutionized both the exchange of information and the marketing of militaria.
2) The hobby of collecting now includes not only historical research but also forensic analysis of badges, variants and fakes.
3) A lot of hidden misinformation from before the information age is being debunked.
4) There's always more to learn.
5) There's no going back.

Sure, market values of different badges may change along the way. So be it. As a collector, I don't give a rat's arse about value, only about history, the process of study and expansion of knowledge and the thrill of the hunt. We have day jobs to make a living. All our collections will be sold by our wives for less than half of what we paid once we're dead.

It's been clearly stated that Bob (and Gentry) are respected members here, and like John says, nobody ever suggested otherwise. But we all live by the same rules here and any badge that catches the public attention will continue to be discussed for the benefit of all. It strikes me as strangely ironic that discussion of this badge, which has passed the muster of the vast majority of contributors to this thread, would cause any outcry whatsoever. I shudder to think what may have happened if Bob had posted a fake. But ideally, it should not have made a difference. That's what we do here -- we study badges.

The point has been made that fakes are perceived to be getting better and better. Maybe they are, but thanks to our current approach to badge study, we can identify fakes more easily than ever before. That's the beauty of our community and this forum. We have to leave our collective egos behind and concentrate instead on our collective study, to our collective benefit and the advancement of the hobby.

Best regards,
---Norm

[John R.]

I know, Leroy. I had a destroyer badge trashed and it was discarded as a fake. Shortly thereafter it was found to be a very rare badge. Such is life, but it is not always pleasant.

Bob Hritz

Here Bob? I thought you sold a destroyer badge to a collector who later posted it here. Nobody was sure about it, but not trashed by any means. Then you said you bought it back since the owner was no longer happy with it and you were happy you did. The rare zinc Meybauer.

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...ight=destroyer

Was this not the destroyer badge that Norm praised and you said you won by getting it back?

Original thread:

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...8780&highlight

and I note nobody said it was bad, they were not sure about it and it was never discarded.

If I am wrong about this story, please post the link to the other trashed destroyer badge that turned out to be good on this forum. Of course, we have come a long way, so maybe it was trashed, but lets review the thread if possible.

I would like to go back and delete any such thread from our database since it is evidently so wrong.

John

[John R.]

I don't like this piece at all to be honest...


Daniel

And we are still waiting to know why you do not like what appears to be a good Schwerin HSF badge.

John

[John R.]

I have asked that it be deleted from the estand because it has become unsaleable by this thread. How sad that an original badge is killed.

Bob Hritz

We shall see how unsellable it is, please keep us posted if you would.

John

[JAndrew]

I wanted to provide an update on this badge.

Based on the discussion here and also konowing of Bob's sense of honesty and fairness I felt very comfortable in purchasing this badge.

Once having it in hand my doubts about it are gone. This is another example where the internet, as good as it is as a tool for collectors, is not the be all and end all for making a decision. Some things simply need to be evaluated in the flesh, so to speak.

I have taken measurements as well as weight and will also take some more detailed photos and post them for all to see at a later date.

I wish to thank everyone who participated in the discussion of this badge and also commend all said members for keeping it informative and civil. Even when there was disagreemnet it was kept at a polite level. To me that is one of the features that puts this forum head and shoulders above many others and makes me proud to be a member of it and happy to have this resource available to me.

JAndrew

[Jeff V]

Glad it all turned out good! Looks like Bob's cries about it being unsellable were totally overdone. I also find it interesting that Bob himself did not post that he had sold the badge, rather content to let the statement that it was unsellable continue.
best wishes,
jeff