HSF Badge on estand

[Steve Mezey]

I like it too

I see no problem with this badge either. I have noticed a lot of paranoia on this forum especially in the last year or so. I know that intentions are well meaning but as Bob stated a question mark or discussion like this one is a sales killer or kiss of death.
There was a one looker mint silver Sub clasp showcased a few months ago and I couldn't believe the scrutiny it took to give it the thumbs up. I find some jump on the bandwagon as soon as there is a question mark and that turns me off. The forum is a great place to learn and do research but not a great place to showcase or sell your badges (collection) as far as I am concerned.

Cheers
Steve

[JAndrew]

Thank you Mike, Leroy, Hubert and Steve.
JAndrew

[münster]

Interesting to learn about those protrusions on the inner wreath that they were filed down sometimes. I use them as a 1st ID on HSFs. I like the font on the MM on this one , the hardware, and the finish. Id take this one if I found it out in the field.

Best,
Dion

[John R.]

There was a one looker mint silver Sub clasp showcased a few months ago and I couldn't believe the scrutiny it took to give it the thumbs up.
Cheers
Steve

Could you provide the link? These silver U-boat frontspanges are about as expensive as they get in this part of the hobby. They need to be looked at carefully before you decide.

John

[Norm F]

I see no problem with this badge either. I have noticed a lot of paranoia on this forum especially in the last year or so. I know that intentions are well meaning but as Bob stated a question mark or discussion like this one is a sales killer or kiss of death.
There was a one looker mint silver Sub clasp showcased a few months ago and I couldn't believe the scrutiny it took to give it the thumbs up. I find some jump on the bandwagon as soon as there is a question mark and that turns me off. The forum is a great place to learn and do research but not a great place to showcase or sell your badges (collection) as far as I am concerned.

Cheers
Steve

Hi Guys,

I think this requires some comment. I don't see an inordinate amount of paranoia on the KM forum, nor do I see any trend of panning good badges. But nevertheless Steve has voiced that impression so it's important to clear the air on this.

Someone chose to post Bob's badge from e-stand here not to showcase a collection, but rather to raise questions and stimulate a discussion on what is obviously an atypical variant. Along the course of that discussion I see only a single negative opinion (and without any specific defense given) -- all the other postings either highlight small differences between examples without expressing negativity and several others (myself included) have stated the opinion it's an original variant. In this forum, we are not in the habit of blanket pronouncements without more in depth reasoning.

By discussions of this type we've made huge strides over the years in identifying fakes from true variants, thus cleaning up the hobby and making it safer for new hobbyists to avoid expensive mistakes.

This should in no way deter someone from showcasing their collection, just the opposite it should give them piece of mind, and also their future buyers.

I see no reason for this thread to render Bob's badge unsalable. If someone is looking for a common standard variant they should wait for one and they won't have to wait long since this is a reasonably common badge. But if one is a specialty collector of rare original variants then Bob's badge may have especial appeal with its hand finished margins. The badge is what it is, and should be sold to the appropriate target audience.

So please don't confuse "discussion" with "condemnation".

Best regards,
---Norm

[Steve Mezey]

gladly

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...t=silver+clasp

cheers
Steve
Yes I understand these are very rare and expensive but this piece speaks for itself

[Flemming]

There was a one looker mint silver Sub clasp showcased a few months ago and I couldn't believe the scrutiny it took to give it the thumbs up. I find some jump on the bandwagon as soon as there is a question mark and that turns me off. The forum is a great place to learn and do research but not a great place to showcase or sell your badges (collection) as far as I am concerned.

Cheers
Steve

I do not think that Norm F vent out of Line or scrutinazing, on this Uboat Clasp:

Hi Guys,

I agree this impressive mint clasp seems like a nice original, but it does have some unique tiny differences in the obverse that I've never seen before.

Here are some comparisons to Jody's previously posted silver clasp. There are extra bits of leaf vein extending beyond the ends of the normal veins. Has anyone seen this on any other example before?

Best regards,
---Norm

With the price these things cost now aday, I find it pretty ok to "question" something that does not look like the accepten types.
And with the Uboat Clasp, it did, in my opinion, look like the ven was different, on the first posted Clasp.

Also, when additional, and better closeups/Macro were posted, Norm F commented

Hi Sascha,

Thanks for the additional closeups. From those, it does indeed look like the "vein extensions" are an optical illusion created when the highlights were buffed to a high polish. Very interesting.

A real beauty.

Best regards,
---Norm

Is this what you Call scrutiny?
I see this a fair question, as it did /does, again in my opinion, look like the veins were extended on the Clasp first shown in the thread.

/Flemming

PS I am sorry, that I posted the new comparison photo, it seems that I vent out of line, but I don't know how, as all I, and others did, were compare the two HSF.

[John R.]

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...t=silver+clasp

cheers
Steve
Yes I understand these are very rare and expensive but this piece speaks for itself

Steve, that clasp was not run through the coals at all. It was acclaimed by everybody but Norm who simply asked a question about veins. This is your example of unwarranted scrutiny?

John

[Steve Mezey]

example

I am not trying to pick a fight with anyone and you and Norm do a fine job.
Next time I will keep my opinions to myself.
peace
Steve

[John R.]

I am not trying to pick a fight with anyone and you and Norm do a fine job.
Next time I will keep my opinions to myself.
peace
Steve

I like your opinions, I was just trying to see what the thread was you were talking about. It was a mint one looker as you said as far as I was concerned and so stated to Sascha on that thread.

I know you are not fighting with me or anybody else, just a discussion and nobody has to be quiet.

John

[Norm F]

I know you are not fighting with me or anybody else, just a discussion and nobody has to be quiet.

John

Absolutely Steve. You're a valued contributor to the forum. I wasn't criticizing your perceptions; I was just trying to address your concerns by providing another perspective, as was John and Flemming.

Likewise, I hope Bob now recognizes that this thread has in no way "killed an original badge", nor is this a case of "good intentions leading to bad results" as Leroy suggested. We're simply discussing an unusual variant.

Best regards,
---Norm

[Mike Kenny]

I have asked that it be deleted from the estand because it has become unsaleable by this thread. How sad that an original badge is killed.

Bob Hritz

Hi Bob,

Personally, I think that is unnecessary over-reaction. A badge was posted for sale on a discussion forum. A discussion was requested and one ensued. Give collectors some credit for making up their own minds based on their experience and comfort levels.

Regards
Mike

PS: maybe I should buy it myself and incorporate it into my article as an example of ATYPICAL hand finishing.

[Bob Hritz]

If this was a fake badge, I would be greatful for the help. If there was the slightest question about authenticity, I would have posted it for discussion before placing it on estand. However, this is a badge purchased in a vet lot and unconditionally original. For me, this is a one second relic, but I have the great advantage of having it in hand and having owned dozens of original fleet service badges by Schwerin. Perhaps the photos are not the greatest, but once something is questioned, on the sales thread, it pretty much makes it too controversial for many collectors who are not looking to take risks. It now looks like a risky buy and it is better to offer the badge where the buyers may examine it in hand and not wonder if it is worth the postage to itspect. The discussion could have taken place without the notice in the sales thread.

No problem as I am sure it will easily sell on another venue.

Bob Hritz

[Leroy]

Likewise, I hope Bob now recognizes that this thread has in no way "killed an original badge", nor is this a case of "good intentions leading to bad results" as Leroy suggested. We're simply discussing an unusual variant.

Norm,

With all respect, I believe that Bob's view is, sadly, the correct one. Collectors are now so skittish about supposedly high tech fakes of everything that even the slightest deviation from what may be considered "standard" is avoided. You yourself have, perhaps unwittingly, acknowledged this state by the earlier remark you made:

" I see no reason for this thread to render Bob's badge unsalable. If someone is looking for a common standard variant they should wait for one and they won't have to wait long since this is a reasonably common badge. But if one is a specialty collector of rare original variants then Bob's badge may have especial appeal with its hand finished margins. The badge is what it is, and should be sold to the appropriate target audience."

This is simply a real badge. There is no reason for it to wait for sale until the "appropriate target audience" shows up.

Best,
Gentry
("Leroy")

[Norm F]

Norm,

With all respect, I believe that Bob's view is, sadly, the correct one. Collectors are now so skittish about supposedly high tech fakes of everything that even the slightest deviation from what may be considered "standard" is avoided. You yourself have, perhaps unwittingly, acknowledged this state by the earlier remark you made:

" I see no reason for this thread to render Bob's badge unsalable. If someone is looking for a common standard variant they should wait for one and they won't have to wait long since this is a reasonably common badge. But if one is a specialty collector of rare original variants then Bob's badge may have especial appeal with its hand finished margins. The badge is what it is, and should be sold to the appropriate target audience."

This is simply a real badge. There is no reason for it to wait for sale until the "appropriate target audience" shows up.

Best,
Gentry
("Leroy")

Hi Gentry,

All due respect in return, but that is incorrect on several levels.

Mike Kenny has probably spent more time in detailed study of Schwerin Fleet badge variants than anyone, and I spend of unhealthy amount of time in the study of variants as well. Based on what we've seen here, it's safe to conclude that this is a rare variant, without doubt worthy of discussion in the KM forum. A badge like that is bound to draw the attention of collectors, some of whom are looking for "standard" examples and others who specifically want rare variants. It's a disservice to the hobby to believe it's better to ignore these variations for the purposes of selling to a wider market. That same amount of "forced inattention" would at other times lead to fakes being sold on e-stand.

Bob himself has said that if this were a fake badge he would be grateful for the help. As it turns out, it's not a fake badge but an interesting variant; regretfully Bob would prefer this nuance not being drawn into the public view, but you can't have it both ways.

You can't expect to sell a badge on a public discussion forum without potentially incurring a public discussion, from which everyone learns. You and Bob, as long-time respected members of this forum, surely must appreciate this. Study of these variants isn't causing a skittish collector community - it's educating us as to the variety of correct examples one can encounter and in the process significantly hurting the trade in fakes.

Best regards,
---Norm