mysterious new 1st pattern S-Boat

[Norm F]

Hi Guys,

There's a very interesting and perplexing S-Boat badge just posted on John T.'s site. It's apparently a zinc 1st pattern S-boat that is subtly different from all the currently known variants and has a very "Juncker-like" reverse setup.

Note the unique horizontal ribbed pattern on the flag at the stern of the ship.

Has anyone seen another "Juncker-like" S-Boat like this? (Maybe John T. could be prevailed upon for some closeups, dimensions and weight?)

Best regards,
---Norm

[Norm F]

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[JAndrew]

Norm,
Interesting. I don't have any of my materials with me as I am on the road but I don't recall any 1st pattern badges with stripes on the flag but there are a few second pattern badges that have stripes such as Schwerin, L 18 and either RS or AS, can't remember which. But the hardware on the reverse really does not match any of these makers. I was thinking at first that maybe one of the companies that we had only seen 2nd patterns from might have snuck in a few 1st patterns to start before the change over but I think the hardware nixes that theory. It does look promising though.
JAndrew

[Norm F]

Here are a few Juncker zincers for comparison of hardware.

[juoneen]

The only flag i can think of, that could be, was the tri colored red white and black german flag , but did they ever fly them on E boats?

[Norm F]

Norm,
Interesting. I don't have any of my materials with me as I am on the road but I don't recall any 1st pattern badges with stripes on the flag but there are a few second pattern badges that have stripes such as Schwerin, L 18 and either RS or AS, can't remember which.

Hi JAndrew,

Yes, all the 2nd pattern S-Boats have the stripes but on those the middle stripe is taller than the top and bottom stripes, whereas on this 1st Pattern all three stripes are the same height.

Come to think of it, why stripes I wonder? Seems to me it should have been the battle flag there?

Best regards,
---Norm

[Norm F]

The only flag i can think of, that could be, was the tri colored red white and black german flag , but did they ever fly them on E boats?

Hi juoneen,

Just noticed your post. I don't think they would fly the Weimar Republic National Flag at the stern, but it could represent the War Ensign of 1933-1935 prior to the Nazi War flag that replaced it? This was also the Imperial Navy Kriegsgösch (Navy jack or War jack) from 1867 onwards. Maybe it was a tiny nod to pre-Nazi Navy traditions that wasn't noticed by the authorities at the time?

Best regards,
---Norm

[JAndrew]

Juoneen,
Norm is absolutely correct about that flag being flown on the early s-boats. Plenty of photos exist of this. But it would have only been on the early type of boats such as S-1 to S-13, maybe a couple of the S-14 series.

But the boat represented on the 1st type badge was the S-30 to 37 series that did not come out until 1939/40 so the RKF should have been properly shown.

But then again, the KM was always trying to screw with the Nazi party in small subtle ways.

JAndrew

[Richard]

I've always wondered why they were the only branch of the service that managed not to have a swaz on their officer's buckles.
Richard V

[JAndrew]

They also had at least two awards without a swastika motif for the K-verband and the surface fleet frontspange. The captains were notorious for removing the swas from the tops of the boats' flag poles, especially on the s and u boats and were often pretty open about their political feelings. For example there is a well known incident when Suhren was bringing his u-boat back in after a long patrol and as he approached the dock he shouted out "Are the Nazis still in charge?" When the answer was "yes" he ordered reverse engines.

Hitler wasn't quite sure what to do with his navy either strategically or politically. He once lamented,"I have a national socialist air force, a reactionary army and a Christian navy."

JAndrew

[Ludwig]

IMO not an original badge!

[Nordmark]

IMO not an original badge!

I could not agree more. Looks more than dubious to me...

[John R.]

I have seen that ribbed flag badge before, just cannot place it right now, but on this forum I think.

John

[Leroy]

I have gone back and checked some 2nd models and the stripes appear to equal in size, but the shearing die has shortened the top stripe.

[Terrence]

Kriegsmarine eagles face the opposite direction of the rest of the 3rd reich as well. The same direction as our eagles face. Away from the arrows of war.

Terrence

I've always wondered why they were the only branch of the service that managed not to have a swaz on their officer's buckles.
Richard V