Opinions needed on U Boat Badges

[peterwyndavies]

I would be grateful for opinions on these two U Boat Badges. The pin assembly seems suspect on the first one, but I do not have much knowledge of these. I attach some pics.
Thanks,
Peter.

[peterwyndavies]

Pics of the second Badge.

[Gensui]

I don't think, that the first badge is a good one since (e.g.) the needle system looks strange...

Chris

[peterwyndavies]

Thanks Chris, I thought that.
Peter.

[BubbaZ]

Gents,
The first tombak u-boat might be very rare Deumer in superb condition, looks perfect and beautifull but to be 100% sure better obverse image would be nice to see.
I enclose reverse shot of my Deumer for comparison.
Cheers,
Hubert

[Gensui]

@ Hubert,
Maybe it’s because of the angle of Peter’s picture. But what catches my eye is the “unclear” shape, especially of the flag and the turret (pls find red circle mark). Could it be a just an optical illusion or some technical reasons in production of this badge?
Cheers,
Chris

[peterwyndavies]

thanks Hubert and Chris I will try and get another shot of the obverse, but might not be able to.
Thanks,
Peter.

[BubbaZ]

Chris,
I think it only looks odd as the picture is taken from an angle.
I enclose obverse images of my Deumer. I will try do take my pics this weekend as these come from the previous owner and are not very good.
Cheers,
Hubert

[BubbaZ]

Here is another early tombak Deumer from Weitze. This one features classic Deumer reverse hardware.
Cheers,
Hubert

[Gensui]

Chris,
I think it only looks odd as the picture is taken from an angle.
I enclose obverse images of my Deumer. I will try do take my pics this weekend as these come from the previous owner and are not very good.
Cheers,
Hubert

Gorgeous badge!

[Mike Kenny]

I agree, the first one has a pretty good chance of being an uncommon original but for me the second one is an out-and-out fake - detail, hardwaare and finish imo are just "wrong".

Regards
Mike

[Martin W]

I also agree.

Hubert's observation as to the 1st badge being an original tombak Deumer is correct IMO.

I also agree with Mike that the second badge is a probable fake,i just do not recall seeing this set up on an original badge before.


Better pictures would help in both cases i think.

Regards,Martin.

[Norm F]

Hi Guys,

I have serious concerns about the "Deumer". I think it might be an excellent (and disturbing) copy.

The finish and texture seem different from other examples (although admittedly this is difficult to judge from photographs under different lighting and photo conditions).

But more concerning, every other of the generally accepted Deumers I've seen, regardless of the reverse setup, have identical internal cutouts. When you compare the one Peter posted, however, you can see obvious differences in the cutout under the sub and the size of the flag, etc.

We know that this design was already faked previously with different setups and spurious Schwerin marks. More recently the Tombak Deumers have gotten a fair bit of "press" on the forums as rare and desirable so I wouldn't be surprised if the Hero or someone else saw an opportunity for profit with a better copy.

Best regards,
---Norm

Best regards,
---Norm

[Mike Kenny]

Hi Norm,

I'm not going to argue strongly either way for the badge in question however, regarding cutouts, there are quite a few differences subtle between the middle and right examples as well. The one at the top of the thread (left in the above comparison) shows evidence of hand filing in at least 2 places, so hand finishing may be muddying the comparison.

Regards
Mike

[Norm F]

Hi Mike,

No argument...just discussion.

While I agree that hand finishing makes a difference in outlines for various makers' products (notably the Berlin makers Juncker, Meybauer, Beco and also P&L in Pforzheim and the unknown flatbacks) there's no precedent for variable outlines in Deumer KM badges - nor in the other Lüdenscheid U-boat makers.

Every example was trimmed with the same stamp as far as I can see. (Two more examples for comparison.) While the badge at the top of the thread could have been a "one off" I suppose, we just don't have a precedent of such behaviour from Deumer, and when spending hard earned money I think that's enough reason to avoid it for now.

Best regards,
---Norm