Minesweeper badge in cloth

[John R.]

Welcome Mycra,

I do not see where such cloth/bullion badges are severely doubted here. Doubt is part of the reason for the forum and the examination of such badges is part of the collector dialogue.

Now, the existence of such badges is not what is in doubt I guess, it is whether or not a particular one is a post war creation or period to the TR timeframe.

I personally like the ones in this thread and I also agree with you that there would be a great variation in quality for these due to the fact so many companies made them.

Like to see yours when you get a chance for our database.

John

[Norm F]

It is surprising and alarmingly here in the forum The officer's minesweeper badge is doubted.........
These are to be found in some marine collections!

One should already deal a little with it before one calls it copy!
They have passed away always a little bit, because they were made by hand.

I own myself two nice and sure pieces of this badge.
Whether one has seen this already in pictures, besides, is not important, because these were privately procured badges and were forbidden in 1942.

Hence, they were to be bought only short and just a little at the free market!

Regards Myrca

Hi Myrca,

Perhaps it's just the language barrier, but no one here has said these are copies. All I've said is we're still lacking photos of them in wear, and that so far there was no reason to call them "officer's badges". Since these were unofficial, there is no reason why only an officer would request one from a Stickerei. The quality of the bullion work is inferior to many bullion eagles that we see, and in my mind I can picture one better on a Collani than on an officer's tunic. Sure they could have been ordered by officers, but why not petty officers as well?

Wartime photographs are always important, to provide context for how and where they were worn and to help distinguish period pieces from modern copies.

Equally important are examples with provenance, so it would be great if you could post your examples and any available information about their provenance.

Best regards,
---Norm

[Antikium]

Hi Norman,

My school english already dates back many years, hence,
I must often use a translation machine and they are not really helpful !

Of course it is not proved that only officers this badge have carried....

But the most pieces to me are known, have appeared in officer's inheritances.
Hence, I also divide the opinion which was left this of the officer's class!
At least they are to be got far rare at the collector's market, as
the easy clothe badge.

I cannot put pictures here, unfortunately, in addition............
I hope one can understand my explanation a little...........

Best Regards Myrca

[Norm F]

But the most pieces to me are known, have appeared in officer's inheritances.
Hence, I also divide the opinion which was left this of the officer's class!
At least they are to be got far rare at the collector's market, as
the easy cloth badge.

Hi Myrca,

Thanks for clearing that up, and it's interesting that you've seen bullion pieces in an officer's estate.

Although I agree a respectable bullion Minesweeper is quite rare, the accepted machine embroidered types are also far from "easy" to find.

Compared to metal badges, I would estimate that finding a good machine-embroidered one is like finding a Tombak Hymmen Minesweeper whereas finding a good hand-embroidered bullion piece is like finding a Tombak Meybauer or a Beco.

In contrast, there are many easy-to-find machine embroidered U-Boat and Destroyer patches which are different from the uncommon types with provenance, and which may be post-war.

But what makes no sense to me, is the outrageous price tag on a bullion Minesweeper recently on Kai Winkler's site whereas with patience one could find a rare Meybauer Tombak Minesweeper for a third of that price. And it's much easier to tell a wartime Tombak badge from a post-war fake. But retail market valuations are often mysterious.

Best regards,
---Norm

[John R.]

Of course, few collectors know about the scarce minesweeper badges but they can see that the bullion and embroidered badges are different from whatever they might have in their collection that is metal, either zinc or tombak.

Scarcity is not always a measure of valuation in the hobby, look at how hard it would be to find a RK compared to the Tombak Meybauer or a Beco MS badge and which is worth more.

I agree, the valuations by sellers, either dealers or collectors (when they are selling of course, but not buying), on these bullion and embroidered badges to include the sawfish patches to me is ridiculous.

They do not sell that often but often enough I guess to keep the prices where they are. That said, I see overvalued tombak and zinc KM badges sitting on dealer sites for many years. Never a reduction in price.

John

[Antikium]

Hello John,
Hello Norman,

I have well misunderstood you there!
I thought this the originality is doubted here in the forum.

@Norman
I also think a dealer offer for such a badge of 700-900 Euros
very far overexpensive.
Quite seldom but also then, the badges aren't worth such a price !
One sees her buying on the collector market again and again once......

I permanently have the prices as a minesweeeper collector also to the badges in the look, therefore is such a Frightening price trend very much!


Best Regards Myrca

[Norm F]

Hi Guys,

Here is a nice bullion Minesweeper out of Myrca's collection that is said to have come from a Navy officer's estate. No more specifics unfortunately but it shows nice aging of the wire bullion in hand. It has some obvious white glue on the back where at some time it was glued on to a display and later peeled off.

The cloth badge itself is negative under black light but the patch of residual glue on the back is more modern and lights up brightly.

Best regards,
---Norm

[Norm F]

closeups showing an area of the white glue with some of the paper from the display stuck to it, in both regular light and black light.

[Norm F]

some closeups of the bullion and blue thread. The bullion hows some toning from age and it's broken in a few places.

[Norm F]

Here are some closeups of wartime materials for reference and comparison. The first is the back of a cellon thread breast eagle showing the texture of the wool backing and the fibrous nature of the core of the celleon thread. The second is a Coastal Artillery cap wreath again showing the wool backing and some wire bullion.

Best regards,
---Norm

[John R.]

Nice addition to your collection Norm. I guess this puts to rest any notion that we were doubting such badges were manufactured.

How does this one compare to the other example Mycra alluded to in his post?

John

[Norm F]

How does this one compare to the other example Mycra alluded to in his post?

John

Hi John,

Here's another piece from Myrca's collection. Moth-eaten but very similar construction. The weave of the cloth backing varies depending on whatever they had on hand at the time I guess, and the blue thread varies in thickness. The stitching pattern on the reverse of this one is very similar to that on the Kai Winkler piece in post #23.

Best regards,
---Norm

[Antikium]

Hello collectors,

Here's another original piece from an estate.
This and that both come from the estates of a sailor who served in the officer's career later shown by Norman.
Whether he bought the badge before, before he became an officer, I can not say anything.
In the shown nothing lights up on the back, so I thought even if the piece back to the original paper shown here.

Regards Myrca

[Norm F]

As John mentioned in a recent thread, I had one find at the recent MAX show that was badge-related. Rather than repost in a second thread, I'll add the link to this reference thread since it pertains to the Minesweeper badge in cloth:

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...47#post7568247

Best regards,
---Norm