Hollow 5 feather u-boat

[Patrick W]

Just found this rare early hollow badge, I know there has been some contoversy over these in the past but in my mind no doubt that this is a legit period version. The strike is really nice and the condition near mint with polished highlights to the fire gilding.

Hope you like

ps.apologies for my poor photography skills

[Patrick W]

,,

[Norm F]

Hi Patrick,

Fantastic example! I too have always felt these were wartime, as discussed before in this thread and others.

Any story behind this find?

Best regards,
---Norm

[Patrick W]

Thanks Norm, it came out of a collection that i purchased that was put together in the 1960s and 70s. A mixture of items, some nice genuine pieces, some outright fakes and some postwar souval badges- usual pre internet collection! i nearly turfed it straight into my fakes box before taking a closer look.....

[Thomas Durante]

Hi Patrick,

I don't like the reverse hardware setup on this one at all. The hinge is the hollow, folded type (not a solid block hinge like we typically see on wartime badges). The same type of hinge is found on fake Assmann Pilot badges as an example.

Also the catch is more reminiscent of postwar fakes, and I think Assmann used that type as well on their 57ers.

Also the gilding doesn't looks correct. It looks more like its thickly painted on, and then cleaned off on the highlights.

Tom

[all1knew]

Hello there,

The catch looks too fat to me.

William Kramer

[Thomas Durante]

Here is a 1957 Assmann EK1 (I think from knockoffnigel's collection). Same hardware IMO.

Tom

[Thomas Durante]

Hinge and catch

[Norm F]

Hi Tom,

For sure this needs more thought considering the "atypical" nature of the hardware and that comparison to the '57 cross is compelling.

The wide catch is my main concern, since as William says it's not one we see on war badges. I'd like to look around to see if anything like it occurs on any wartime product, insignia, pin, etc.

The hollow hinge block was certainly used in '57s but hollow hinge blocks were also used by Schickle, Mayer and Deschler in wartime so that doesn't exclude the possibility.

The first period publication with the "5-feather" U-boat is Klietmann's "Deutsche Auszeichnungen" in 1957 so that doesn't push it any earlier, and the only view I saw had the swastika cut off so I can't tell if that was the solid or the hollow version. Gentry might have this publication -- I'll ask him.

The solid zinc version, at least, has cropped up in fairly convincing context but it has a different catch.

Best regards,
---Norm

[Mike Kenny]

Hi,

Patrick, my first thoughts on seeing the hardware were that it was classic post-war. Tom's comparison has made it much easier to see. One point that has not yet been raised is that, at least to me, the basemetal appears to be silver in colour (and not a "zinc" silver/grey either). That does not bode well.

I will not state that the design is post-war, it may indeed be wartime (although the first thread linked does not leave me 100% convinced as most makers mentioned in it existed post-war while the link in Post#9 shows a much more believable example) but I think this particular example was probably manufacturered post-war.

Regards
Mike

[Norm F]

Hm. Here are a post-war S&L Fahrerabzeichen and Reiterabzeichen (previously posted by Hardy (naxos) with the same wide catch, another Lüdenscheid maker like the EK1 of F.W. Assmann.

Not looking good, I'm afraid. So, what does this say about the solid zinc versions, if anything? Could the hollow be a post-war product based on a wartime die? Or are they all suspect? Certainly the zincer attached to the leather U-boat jacket in the other thread seemed convincing but who knows.

Best regards,
---Norm

[Patrick W]

Interesting comments guys- I will try and take some better pics tomorrow- the badge looks much better in hand- it is stamped brass which is gilded and then polished for definite. The catch is a silver metal which has been gilded and from my point of view is the only part of the badge which is odd. The pin and hinge block I have no issue with as period type- The hinge block is filled also so different to the 57 ek1 shown. Could anyone post a side shot of a hinge block from a zinc badge of the same type- would be interesting to see if they match as it appears the pin does.
I also like the fact that the badge and individual parts have been finished prior to soldering- hence the black solder marks- this is a common feature on early badges by a number of makers.

Lastly I have the Klietmann catalogue and the 5 feather badge has a cut out swaz so must be the zinc version.

Thanks for the comments so far and please do post your example if you have one

[Norm F]

...
The hinge block is filled also so different to the 57 ek1 shown. Could anyone post a side shot of a hinge block from a zinc badge of the same type- would be interesting to see if they match as it appears the pin does.
...
Lastly I have the Klietmann catalogue and the 5 feather badge has a cut out swaz so must be the zinc version.

Hi Patrick,

Yes, as you and Gentry have verified, the 1957 Klietmann pamphlet documents the solid zinc version of this badge.

The hinge block on the solid zinc version is different from the hollow version. It has the standard short barrel hinge with machined flanges that is seen on so many late war zincers (see attached). The hinge on the hollow version in contrast has a taller hinge block. You say it's not hollow? Could you please provide a closeup of the hinge in profile?

The hollow example shown here was obtained by Andy B. in an antique shop in Illinois in the 1960's so it dates at least as far back as that.

Best regards,
---Norm

[Nordmark]

There are hollow subs that I really like, but this one is not one of them.



Regards,



Daniel

[Norm F]

There are hollow subs that I really like, but this one is not one of them.

Regards,

Daniel

Hi Daniel,

Yes, no one is doubting the authenticity of the Schickle and Deumer hollow Tombak U-boat badges. In fact, it's their precedent for the existence of hollow tombak U-Boats that causes us to even consider this unknown possibly Lüdenscheid-made product at all.

It just requires more study. All we know so far for sure, is the solid zinc version was around in Germany by 1957 and the hollow version was around in Illinois by the 1960's. Other than that we have the find of a solid zincer tied to a KM leather jacket (softer evidence).

Cheers.
---Norm