"Bacqueville" Kriegsmarine Badges are...

[TOULON44]

Hello John,
Sorry it's headgear and sidecaps I was talking about. You can change the term on my post, thank you.
To answer Norm, it was you (the forum, do not see any personal attack) that decided that these insignia had no known existences. Do not say that to French collectors and museums on the Atlantic coast who wear these insignia either as veterans, or people who have picked them up after the war or bought for almost nothing at fleas. It was you who decided that there was no connection with Bacqueville, it is not the majesty of French collectors who have known for a long time that there is nothing to complain about these insignia.
If the items I bring are unverifiable for you, as I understand it, the badges do exist in several thousand copies and are not abstract. Maybe that's the opinion you feel about it that does not rest on any palpable element.
What do you say about unmarked German badges, but which ones are well referenced, in which category do you classify them? We accept that they were manufactured during the war by a German firm and therefore authentic, or do we do as with Bacqueville?
There is no speculation on our part, we know in France that these insignia are authentic and have been requested by the German navy.
I can not show you the "contract" that the Germans and Bacqueville have signed, but as I wrote before I can not see a manufacturer make thousands of copies in advance, do not have the contract and bring out these unsold after the war ???

As for the directive you are referring to, I do not read German, but I think it is the prohibition on the soldier to wear foreign decorations, therefore enemy, and not German decoration made in a foreign country.
But as John says, the continuation of this discussion is interesting.
Yours truly

[Dietrich Maerz]

As for the directive you are referring to, I do not read German, but I think it is the prohibition on the soldier to wear foreign decorations, therefore enemy, and not German decoration made in a foreign country.
But as John says, the continuation of this discussion is interesting.
Yours truly

For the benefit of all who cannot read the German language (something which is extremely helpful when studying that time period) here is a translation:

"Recently several foreign companies from the occupied countries or from friendly abroad made applications for the distribution of German orders and medals and have approached German companies with the request to deliver German orders and medals, especially war badges. To this we remark:
In general it is unwanted that the marketing with German orders and medals is conducted by foreign companies. There cannot be recognized a requirement for it, since the owner of German decorations can secure replacements or sdditional pieces without any great effort from a company inside the Reich. The delivery of German orders, decorations or ribbons to foreingn companies hasto be omitted. In very special exceptional cases the statement of the Präsidialkanzlei has to be obtained up front."

This statement is very clear. And if the sale of German made orders and medals by foreign companies was prohibited, how can the manufacturing by a foreign company be permisseable? And if so, why would Dr. Doehl give the permission for that? There is not even the slightest reason for him to do so.

[chrisje110]

I feel sorry for anyone that got burned on those pieces, even do most collectors knew that they where sketchy at best, they sold for alot more then fake prices on the E-stand, and dealer sites.

[TOULON44]

Hello Dietrich,
Thank you for the translation, it is true that it is better to read and understand the German in this event.
This directive is very clear, but as you say, it also clearly says that it is the delivery (of German insignia) to foreign companies that is forbidden, this directive applies for the allied units of the Germans on the front from the east, perhaps Romanians, Bulgarians, etc., who demand the wearing of German insignia! We are not in this configuration with Bacqueville, this French manufacturer did not ask the German authorities, it was imposed on him!
This text remains ambiguous because how was it explained that the Germans had German uniforms made by the French?
The uniform representing a winning nation remains more important in my opinion than badges.
I think that this directive was meant to be a brake on the demands of Germany's foreign army allied to wearing German insignia.
Chris

[Militaria-Berlin]

The text is not ambiguous at all.
It states that foreign company's have applied to manufacture German war badges.
It then states that this is totally unnecessary and not wanted from the office of Dr. Doehle at all. In fact it practically forbids the manufacture of German awards in occupied or friendly countries. There can therefore be no argument that these badges were ever ordered by the German armed forces for distribution, and are therefore just copys.

I will add that we have always viewed these as very poor quality copys and never have and never will sell them as authentic.

To your comment on uniforms. Every soldier needs a uniform, and it can be difficult to equip many men with uniforms and the replacement when something is damaged, however, in reality very few soldiers actually won a state award and German company's had no problem manufacturing the amount required.

[Norm F]

Hi Chris (Toulon 44),

This text remains ambiguous because how was it explained that the Germans had German uniforms made by the French?

As mentioned by Militaria-Berlin, there is no ambiguity in the Präsidialkanzlei's announcement: the text clearly refers to "deutschen Orden und Ehrenzeichen" -- German Orders and Medals -- and "Auszeichnungen" -- Awards. This is nothing to do with insignia or uniforms, and it's a mistake to lump them together.

There is no speculation on our part, we know in France that these insignia are authentic and have been requested by the German navy.
I can not show you the "contract" that the Germans and Bacqueville have signed, but as I wrote before I can not see a manufacturer make thousands of copies in advance, do not have the contract and bring out these unsold after the war ???

Again these are not "insignia", they are awards. And you can't possibly speak for all France, since we know from Vince's posts that knowledgeable collectors in France also recognize the controversy.

Anyway, we've done enough rehashing of known facts and rumours. We must await further forensic data regarding the casting method used and/or better historical documentation pushing the date back further than the 1960s.

Best regards,
---Norm

[FrenchVolunteer]

Hi,

sorry for the lack of replies from me during the last days.
Thanks TOULON44 for your testimony. Here are my comments.

The Bacqueville badges were made during the war on behalf of the kriegsmarine.

Bacqueville confirmed that they never made those badges and the quality and method of fabrication is an insult to any medal maker, including Bacqueville.
Not counting that not a single period proof was ever found.

These insignia with or without boxes and especially those of UBoot were released on the flea of Toulon regularly in the 70s until the 90/2000 because they came from individuals whose fathers or grandfathers had looted the arsenal in August 44.

Wow, another wonderful and unbelievable story !
Which number is it ? 4 or 5 ?
Too many different stories for a single fake...

Oh strangely the badges appeared in Toulon only starting from the 70's too ??? Nothing before ???
What a joke.
All the Fakeville badges were sold in Toulon with a "local updated story", this is the more interesting part of your testimony !
It will confirm that those fakes FLOODED the market, everyone sold them... starting from the 70's !

This is the same story as for the Croix de Guerre Légionnaire "Delande", which was retailed by various sellers in France, which gave their own stories...
Local dealers are always "pimping" their own stories to be able to sell their fakes.
This is B.A.-BA to sell fakes.
Please check the dozen of articles made in "Militaria Magazine" since the beginning, in the "green part" of the magazine, you have infos about the current fakes in circulation, "stories" that are told etc.

At the time, these insignia did not interest people in the same way as the camouflaged German helmets ! ?

This is your opinion, and i'm sorry but phaleristic in France was always a very big thing, even more for nazi/foreign items. Only few people collect helmets if you compare the market with medal/awards collectors.
And to compare with "camouflaged German helmets" is not a good idea, it is a well known faked market... No matter what people think.

All the little collectors that we were, looked for the German manufacturing badges as well as the German helmets with badges. But KM Bacqueville insignia were as many as German-made KM insignia.

flood verb
to fill or enter a place in large numbers or amounts

Once I traded with an old gentleman colonial French decorations against 5 Bacqueville insignia that had recovered his father at the arsenal at liberation. A friend of mine had a dozen KM badge including Bacqueville recovered at the base of Bordeaux.

2nd hand testimonies...
Same as for UFOs. "My friend saw the corpses, i swear !".
Now can you explain how those badges remained UNKNOWN more than 35 years after the war ??? In Bordeaux, in Toulon, in Paris ???
The whole lot is said to come from the Navy Ministry of Paris, courtesy of crook Johnson as the "official" story tells.
Local pimped stories...

On the other bases of kriegsmarine in France, there must have been just as much!

And we never heard of them for 35 years ? I'm sure submarines and planes bring them to the Atlantic pockets...
All those badges were never given to soldiers, but the stocks were pristing in every KM bases ? Yeah right...
All those testimonies proves that people are ready to milk their story to give a more "credible look" to it, so the local collectors can be tricked...

See You

Vince

[FrenchVolunteer]

Hi,

Just a point.... even if they were Period Made... (And maybe some were... with production started again after the war for collectors.... there is a difference between Period and "Official"...

I think most soldiers who have been deployed overseas have seen local merchants making Insignia Etc to sell to the troops.

There are French Overseas medals made in Lebanon to sell to French UN soldiers based there... Ditto for the French Colinial medals made in Vietnam.... American troops have bought American Insignia made in Vietnam, Thailand, Japan, Iraq etc. etc... In the Balkans in the early 90s they were copying badges to sell to UN soldiers, I had sterling silver dog tags made for me in Central Africa from a guy making French badges... All made for the troops, but by no means official... or even allowed....

And if you go to Vietnam... they are still making them....

So maybe someone did make them in the war in small numbers... and this was increased to big numbers after the war....

Many of those "said local variations" are fakes or dubious medals and awards (ex : Médaille Coloniale Etat Français).
Also we are speaking here of the German Navy, in a short period of 4 years, including the fact that a big part of the personnel of the Navy was located in France, which was taken into account by German makers which probably retailed the badges in a way or another to the units (a good study to make), especially with the fact that local makers were mostly forbidden as per German regulations.

German Army was highly regulated, unfortunately it is not the case for France as the paper is rulling over the medals (which explain why anyone can produce medals... including fakes).

We cannot explain those badges with the local French regulations.
The regulations were the ones of the German Navy/Army.
Even more for ugly badges like these ones...
Not a single German high-ranking officer would have accepted them.
Any KM base Kommandeur would have thought of a scam due to the incredibly bad quality (please note that not a single period badge is made like that).

See You

Vince

[FrenchVolunteer]

Hi,

Do not say that to French collectors and museums on the Atlantic coast who wear these insignia either as veterans, or people who have picked them up after the war or bought for almost nothing at fleas.

French museums are full of fakes, French books are full of fakes (check the "Kleinkampfmittel" patch for example, i have a full unreleased study on all the types of fakes, and unfortunately many French "specialist" books are full of them).
Same for the Croix de Guerre Légionnaire, i have testimonies of veterans who bought the fake "Delande" after the war, even one was donated to the Musée de l'Armée in Paris !
Again, no one can trace those Fakeville badges before the 70's.
Many other examples in France about bullsh*t told about medal and awards, i discovered that recently... This is unfortunate because French collectors appear to be not very serious in some subjects.

It was you who decided that there was no connection with Bacqueville,

Bacqueville said they never made the badges, and the article in "Militaria Magazine" which is said to tell "the real story" never mention Bacqueville as the maker.

it is not the majority of French collectors who have known for a long time that there is nothing to complain about these insignia.

1) check Jo Rivett's videos on YouTube for all the recent fakes debunked.
2) check the "Delande" CDGL story which fooled collectors from at least the 60's to the 90's.
3) check the "champagne rune painted decal" scandal (hundred of thousand of dollars made by the fakers/crooks since the 70's).
4) check the "SS Tuxedo badge" scandal (again hundred of thousand of dollars made by Kai Winkler).
5) check the Pinkie smock scandal (dozen of thousand of dollars made by Johannes Floch).
6) check the "Blut Ordern prototype" scandal (dozen of thousand of dollars made by the German faker).
7) check the "Militaria Magazine" green section since the beginning, with all the stories of fakes and bidouilles made over France/the world.

Dozen fakes were debunked in the last 10 years... Fakes which existed for décades and were perfectly aknowledged by the majority, and promoted by "specialists" and "advanced collectors".

Also check History (with a big "H") to see all the bulls**t said for decades or centuries about thousand of "historical facts".
The Fakeville badges were made only 40 years ago... This is a tinnie period for the historian.

The Fakeville badges will not be the last to be debunked... Be sure of that.

If the items I bring are unverifiable for you, as I understand it, the badges do exist in several thousand copies and are not abstract. Maybe that's the opinion you feel about it that does not rest on any palpable element.

We have the same opinion, thousand of badges flooded the market starting from the 70's... Hundred of thousand of francs, a big business...
We are not talking of 50 to 100 "homemade" Croix de Guerre Légionnaire made in the middle of the 80's by a local dealer.

What do you say about unmarked German badges, but which ones are well referenced, in which category do you classify them? We accept that they were manufactured during the war by a German firm and therefore authentic, or do we do as with Bacqueville?

Please check your own badges, and the video of Jo.
The quality is subpar and ridiculously bad.
Nothing to compare to unmarked German badges.
And by the way... Bacqueville never made the badges.

There is no speculation on our part, we know in France that these insignia are authentic and have been requested by the German navy.

Generalization, because many French dealers and collectors do not trust those badges, even more since you mention the name of main source for them, René Johnson...

I can not show you the "contract" that the Germans and Bacqueville have signed, but as I wrote before I can not see a manufacturer make thousands of copies in advance, do not have the contract and bring out these unsold after the war ???

Bacqueville never... you know the rest.

See You

Vince

[FrenchVolunteer]

Hi,

this directive applies for the allied units of the Germans on the front from the east, perhaps Romanians, Bulgarians, etc., who demand the wearing of German insignia!

No Chris, German regulations work for everyone, everywhere...
Just study micro-history of WW2, especially 1945.
Germany didn't "play" with regulations.
This is not the "Armée de Bourbaki"... Even if "Bagration" broke the back of the German Army in the East.

We are not in this configuration with Bacqueville, this French manufacturer did not ask the German authorities, it was imposed on him!

We need to be cautious because Bacqueville could start legal claim against such unverified fact. If for example it was a very big famous and rich firm, people claiming that they worked for the German Army could be put on trial for defamation.

This text remains ambiguous because how was it explained that the Germans had German uniforms made by the French?

It is your opinion, and be sure that the text was made to avoid such "ambiguity".

The uniform representing a winning nation remains more important in my opinion than badges.

In my own opinion this is not the case at all.
You can't play with medals and awards on a German uniform (same for most of the armies in the world by the way).

See You

Vince

[FrenchVolunteer]

Hi,

please find the "real story" as per the words of Bertrand Malvaux, a famous specialist of the Napoleonic Empire.

The article was published in "Militaria Magazine" issue 76, November 1991.
I just got it today by mail.

The story is the one that was provided in on of the English articles that Jo spoke about.
But there is more in the whole article.

We can resume the article by :

1) "Frenchs know that they are real"

2) Foreign authors don't like it

3) some Foreign authors (before 1991) present the badges : Angolia, Forman, Patzwall, Ailsbury
(Note : many are known for the fakes they included or promoted in their books)

4) Story told by Jean-Claude Kerviche :
(note : it would not be the first time someone is used as a nomminee in a dubious deal. Could it be possible that this is the manufacturer himself ? We also don't know who is Kerviche, and how the interview was made).

A* Vichau is the leader of a French Navy troop, located in the Trocadéro during WW2.

B* During the Liberation of Paris, this unit will put the French flag over the Tour Eiffel.

C* During the Liberation, the unit go to the Navy Ministry (Place de la Concorde)
(note : all that is said here has no direct link with the badges... Imo it is to "pimp" the fake story with a "real one")

D* A few years after the end of the war, the son of Vichau show to Jean-Claude Kerviche (15 at the time) 6 badges. Kerviche asks Vichau's son to bring him more. Other items included Iron Crosses, wound badges etc.

E* At the same time, Kerviche found in a building near La Muette (said to be another place for the Kriegsmarine in which Raeder lived) other similar badges, including a dozen of car pennants for the Kriegsmarine (30 x 40cm).

F* A few years later, Kerviche will trade all those artefacts to René Johnson.
(note : fake alert toooooooo toooooo !)

5) Bertrand Malvaux at the end of article (last paragraph) says : VERY BEAUTIFUL QUALITY, and are of similar quality as the German badges. Very precise design (which is not the case for all the German badges), the quality of the metal and the gold paint are PERFECT (nota : Malvaux is speaking of mint in box badges i suspect)

6) Bertrand Malvaux said that he found various U-Boot badges that were weared (i don't know what he means, i suspect that the badges are lacking gold paint = in wear ?).

7) Malvaux gives the years of production : between May 30, 1941 and January 28, 1943.

8) Unless i made a mistake, NOWHERE in the article is given the name of Bacqueville, and nowhere is given the "1972" year ?

See You

Vince

[TOULON44]

First we will put things in order.
I thought I was on a forum to exchange ideas, testimonials, constructive words etc ... instead I find myself in a schoolyard or what I say, do not like. I give you my testimony of insignia issued from the German naval bases, but no, you call me a liar ... Do not go too far !!
You are not listening you are in ideology. I'm no longer 15, I'm not a rabbit of 3 weeks, and if my words do not please, I do not give you the right to be contemptuous and haughty.
Your ideas are not mine but I do not care. Moreover, I am not a student of anyone and I am not here to receive lessons from people who goes round in circle since 14 years! That's right 14 years ..... that you dig your head, that you self-persuade that these badges are copies !! I am wrong or right?

Now to return to the point you object to!
No offense, but for the directive Doehle, I read that the German authorities refuse that foreign armies manufacture and carry "Deutschen Orden und Ehrenzeichen and Auszeichnungen" we agree! So that's what I'm saying it's ambiguous to the extent that you're talking about medals and awards while I'm talking about kriegsmarine badges!
Moreover, unless you do not know how to count, this directive or you yourself say that it dates from May / June 1942, does not concern contracts that could have been made before that date. What does this directive do in a case that begins in 1940 or 1941?

You totally ignore one or two years of occupation and it does not shock you? This is perhaps the reason why Bacqueville was solicited by the German navy, contracted, manufactured, sent to the bases and following this directive never distributed! It never occurred to you ???
I don't know if this explication is valid or not but it is a beginning of explanation and it is worth it!
On the other hand we agree that these insignias are not pretty with the only difference, that they are very well drawn but that the gilding is of very bad quality and the back very coarse, but that does not make them copies for as much!

Another thing, these badges were distributed with boxes. Bacqueville not being a box manufacturer. Who gave them to him? A French, German manufacturer? To have had in their hands, they strongly resemble the German manufacturing boxes hit D and R of Deutsche Reich. Or, in the continuity, Bacqueville did copies of boxes that cost more than the bag. It's very profitable!
Are you going to show me which directive this one?

By the way, you know the insignia of the 1st German Parachute Corps made in Italy in January 44 by Bregonzio in Milan .... Where was Doehle and his directive?

Regarding the testimony, which I brought about fleas in the 70/75, I specify a testimony, not a "story" sometimes that somebody don't understand the difference, I did not say they appeared that year, it was simple to understand, I said, "young collector that we were we started to collect these badges in the 70's" !!! Not the same ! Before we were too young or we were not interested in that!

As for the various speakers who do not like these insignia and consider them as vulgar copies, it is your most stringent right but it seems to me that I did not ask you to consider them as authentic.

So, to summarize all your diatribes, you want persuade those who consider these insignia as authentic, that a French merchant X (we do not talk about Bacqueville any more, since no evidence proves it despite the testimonies) directive of 1942 (it is you who say it) made nevertheless thousands of badly bad quality badges, without knowing if it would have contracted with the German navy, would have delivered them nevertheless in the naval bases German (Despite the formal ban, so he would have forced the Germans to take his badges), and not be paid in return ?

Or more simple, it is a French forger who thought that there were only idiots in France, that they would see only fire, and manufactured after the war thousands of insignia bad qualities since they are altered at the manufacturing to believe you, and all that would have cost him absolutely nothing, on the contrary he would have amassed a fortune ..

[TOULON44]

Do not forget one thing, this happened in France, with a French merchant, badges found in the German bases in France, recovered by French civilians and you want me to believe that we know nothing?
Do not exaggerate either!
Chris

[TOULON44]

By the way there are 265 collectors who think these badges are authentic!

[John R.]

Chris,

Be assured that we (Norm and I at least) appreciate your comments and also be assured that both of us wish for these badges to be authentic since they reside in so many collections.

Nobody is calling you untruthful in your comments, recollections, or personal experiences. Any comments that did, would be deleted or PM me with what the offending parts of a particular post might be and I will review them.

You know that the hobby for some odd reason brings emotions to the forefront very often. Yes, we all have a financial investment but I do not think that is the entire story of course.

I also do not like it when I post something and another collector quotes sections of what I say and makes a comment or dissects my post. However, that is how it works although to the disadvantage of those that are not native English speakers.

Also recognize that on a forum that insists on English as the language, we are dealing with translation issues, subtlies of context, and many misunderstandings. Normal emails you probably know in the native language of the sender often convey emotions that were of the moment and later regretted. Not the same as in the old days where you had to write a letter or pick up a telephone.

I would never dream to go on a French forum with my school boy 5 years of French and try to argue the forensics of a German WW2 badge!!!!

I admire those that come on this forum and try to do so since it is not the same as conversational language, it is a very technical subject and I am sure Norm would not go on a French forum and discuss issues in his professional area of expertise.

Bottom line, nobody is trying to make those that think these badges are period upset. It is just a forum, nobody claims to be an expert in all things related to KM badges, we just try to use common sense, forensic analysis, research and yes, even anecdotal and personal experience and hope that those that purchase any badge of the period does so with full knowledge of current understanding.

So you are correct in first line in the above post:

I thought I was on a forum to exchange ideas, testimonials, constructive words etc .

Exactly correct and I think that is all anybody is doing including Norm, myself, Vince and the many others for and against. Also remember this is one of the most viewed threads on the forum--sure, not as many as some, but far more than most. So the interest is there. Most people viewing never make a comment, but they are reading the posts far more than you might know--they just are watching how the discussion develops so do not give up on us here.

John