"Bacqueville" Kriegsmarine Badges are...

[Norm F]

BTW, the French were apparently not averse to using hardware similar to German products since the pin system on the Mourgeon pin shown by Scott earlier is the same type that's used on German-made pins.

[scotty1418]

Hi Scott,

Yes, that's basically restating your point from post #139 and #150.

These badges (at least the "original" versions of them) are only in zinc, not Buntmetall. But you raise a good point if there is no precedent for any French-made awards of any kind using zinc. Knowing nothing about the French industry I'll take your word for that.

However the pin system is unique and is not seen on any German-made awards either, so not looking French doesn't make it German.

As to markings, why would any French manufacturer in occupied France who made a swastika-bearing award put their name on it? Sounds like asking for trouble down the line. French-attributed TR insignia typically don't bear maker marks as well, and again these by their nature parody German manufacture rather than appearing "distinctly French".

If they had been been manufactured in Germany post-war then I would have expected them to appear in German collections but instead they appeared (anecdotally) only in French and American collections to begin with.

So really, I don't think we're any further ahead on this line of thinking, one way or the other.

Best regards,
---Norm

Hey Norm, just to address your comment on the markings - there are many Vichy organization insignia that were manufactured during the Occupation era and most will be marked by the manufacturer. There are also solid examples of Cartier manufacturing jeweled swastikas as discussed elsewhere on WAF before. So French manufacturers being timid about placing their name on the back, to me, isn't a strong argument.

[scotty1418]

BTW, the French were apparently not averse to using hardware similar to German products since the pin system on the Mourgeon pin shown by Scott earlier is the same type that's used on German-made pins.

Hi Norm,

The pinback style with window attachment plate was very common for French insignia of the era. But I think it's a fallacy to make the connection on that one type and use that as a parallel to the qualification badge hardware attachments we are looking at here - which have no parallel in french insignia.

We certainly can find American made badges with a window attachment plate and pinback of the era, but I dont think that would lead us to suggest there were American wartime manufacturers of these KM badges

Scott

[Norm F]

Fair enough Scott, but to re-state my point, just as you see nothing French in their manufacture, I see nothing German in their manufacture. They're not any more German-appearing than French-appearing - they're parodies of German awards. And it's only French collectors and France-based American vets who claim to have wartime or occupation-era anecdotes to go with them -- not Germans. If they were made in Germany, then whoever made them effectively covered all their tracks and got them all out of the country before they were distributed, unlike the many "conventional" late wartime and post-war zincers to appear in Germany and Austria.

Best regards,
---Norm

[Norm F]

there are many Vichy organization insignia that were manufactured during the Occupation era and most will be marked by the manufacturer. There are also solid examples of Cartier manufacturing jeweled swastikas as discussed elsewhere on WAF before. So French manufacturers being timid about placing their name on the back, to me, isn't a strong argument.

Certainly a bold statement to claim "most" swastika-bearing military and political insignia were marked by their French manufacturers. Before I can accept that, I would require some posted evidence to convince me that this was the rule rather than the exception -- which is difficult since often the unmarked items can only be guessed at.

The only thread I could find on the Cartier swastika was one anecdote from Pierre on a single example without corroborating images. Again, hardly indicative of a mainstream trend. I don't doubt that swastika-bearing products could be manufacturer-marked, but that doesn't mean all of them of even most of them were. If German manufacturers didn't feel compelled to add their company logo why should an entrepreneurial French copy-cat feel any different.

Best regards,
---Norm

[scotty1418]

Certainly a bold statement to claim "most" swastika-bearing military and political insignia were marked by their French manufacturers. Before I can accept that, I would require some posted evidence to convince me that this was the rule rather than the exception -- which is difficult since often the unmarked items can only be guessed at.

The only thread I could find on the Cartier swastika was one anecdote from Pierre on a single example without corroborating images. Again, hardly indicative of a mainstream trend. I don't doubt that swastika-bearing products could be manufacturer-marked, but that doesn't mean all of them of even most of them were. If German manufacturers didn't feel compelled to add their company logo why should an entrepreneurial French copy-cat feel any different.

Best regards,
---Norm

Hi Norm, I was only stating that nearly all Vichy organization insignia I have seen are marked -whether the 'Francisque' orders, armistice force badges, Vichy political support pins, Vichy veterans organization badges, etc. I can't think of 'swastika' marked badges being manufactured much by French manufacturers at all - the Cartier anecdote being an exception.

To give some perspective, the French government of the time transitioned to Vichy. It was the new law of the land. Mostly this was seen as how things 'would now be' - so it wouldn't make much sense to assume that manufacturers might be worried down the road about their wartime productions. These were commonly manufactured by well-known makers like Augis, J. Decaut, or at a minimum the trademark 'OA' or 'Depose' registration mark. Drago is stated to have 'refused to produce' under Vichy, but they still manufactured a few and marked them as such.

I only am attempting here to bring some perspective from the French insignia industry to this discussion since so far it has seemed to be purely from the German badge side.

To accept these as original, in my opinion, is to accept that an unknown French manufacturer in a one-off nature produced them outside the norms of any French badge/insignia production to that point or after.

Can I say they're fake? No. But the technical aspects of the badges lead me to see the chances of originality being on the small side.

Best
Scott
French-Insignia.com

[Norm F]

But the technical aspects of the badges lead me to see the chances of originality being on the small side.

Hi Scott,

There are two separate questions which are becoming blurred together in your response, namely:
1) Were they made by a French award manufacturer.
2) Were they made in wartime (i.e. "original").

You have clearly stated your case that the construction is not typical for what you see in the production of known French awards. In other words, you do not believe they were made by any known French award manufacturer. Whether that is the case or not, it still does not answer the question of "originality". To that point, one could just as easily point out that the technical aspects of the badges do not match any known fake from 1945 to the present, nor do they match the characteristics of any known German maker.

Therein lies the dilemma, they are unique in their production and more sophisticated in execution and context (packaging, anecdotal accounts, etc.) than any other reproductions. They cannot be pigeon-holed to any country other than anecdotally, and that's why the discussion goes back and forth.

To accept these as original, in my opinion, is to accept that an unknown French manufacturer in a one-off nature produced them outside the norms of any French badge/insignia production to that point or after.

I agree with that statement. And we're always left wondering what event, if any, prompted the Präsidialkanzlei to officially declare in June, 1942 "It is categorically undesirable that trading of German medals and decorations be operated by foreign companies".

Best regards,
---Norm

[hurricane1952]

Hi !
We can write pages and pages about Bacqueville KM badges, fake or not. Bacqueville is a medals maker since 1790 and shop is always located in Paris at Palais Royal.
I think Bacqueville has really made badges for the KM during the war but Bacqueville will never admit to have worked for the germans, that's the 1st point, Bacqueville badges are of a poorer quality regarding the german ones that's the second point.
I think they have been worn by KM members but we will never really know.

[Norm F]

Bacqueville is a medals maker since 1790 and shop is always located in Paris at Palais Royal.
I think Bacqueville has really made badges for the KM during the war but Bacqueville will never admit to have worked for the germans, that's the 1st point, Bacqueville badges are of a poorer quality regarding the german ones that's the second point.
I think they have been worn by KM members but we will never really know.

It's one thing to believe that the "French-made" badges are French wartime construction, since this at least has reasonable supportive circumstantial evidence in their construction, packaging, U.S. vet bring-back examples and period PK announcements forbidding subsequent award distribution by foreign companies.

But it's completely unsubstantiated (to date) to presume that they were made by Bacqueville as opposed to any other maker of insignia in France. There has been literally zero evidence presented in any English-speaking forum to support this, so one has to wonder where that story came from.

And it's equally unsupported to believe that they were ever worn by KM sailors since they've never occurred in German vets' groupings nor in photos and were expressly forbidden by the Praesidialkanzlei. Contrast this with private purchase bullion Minesweeper badges which also appear to have come from France and were also forbidden late in the war; despite being much more rare than all the zinc "French-made" badges they have at least appeared in German vet estates. Likewise, very uncommon private purchase Minesweeper badges like Assmann and R.S.S. nevertheless appear in period portrait photographs but not the "French-made" badges. So why would anyone believe the "French-made" zincers were bought and worn by KM sailors against regulations? Until one is identified in a period photograph this remains statistically unlikely.

Best regards,
---Norm

[John T]

Interesting link with some in a French Vet group--

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...68#post7404968

[Norm F]

Interesting link with some in a French Vet group--

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...68#post7404968

Not much story provided there but interesting to see. Typical boxed examples. Vet "bring back" is a bit of a misnomer for a soldier from France.

Best regards,
---Norm

[Norm F]

Interesting link with some in a French Vet group--

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...68#post7404968

Oh, I just noticed that wasn't a "French Vet group" at all, but just a collection amassed over time. The same boxed "French-made" examples were posted previously by RAPH back in 2013 from his flea market finds: http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=710871

Best regards,
---Norm

[Norm F]

I just noticed that for the first time ever, the thread's opinion poll shows a 50% acceptance of these badges as "original" (which for current purposes I would interpret as the belief in production during wartime, not the claim of attribution to Bacqueville). This number has slowly edged upwards over the years and in 2014 was at 48.95%: http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...48#post6250648

Best regards,
---Norm

[KeithRic]

For what little it is worth, I can relate that I got 5 (different) of these badges, in the patterned paper-covered boxes exactly as shown in post 207, from an Australian militaria dealer in 1974. All were in fine condition, although the boxes were a bit bashed. The dealer was reliable, and didn't knowingly sell fakes (which hadn't made it to Aus. in large numbers, except for the really obvious stuff then). At the time we'd never seen that sort before, and there certainly didn't seem to be a flood of them to the market around then. Unfortunately if there was any back-story to them I don't remember what it was. We both certainly thought they were genuine. Cheers Keith

[Norm F]

I don't know whether these pins are real or not since they are way outside my area of expertise, but I see them on the internet described as Mourgeon-attributed wartime and pre-wartime issue. The setups are quite similar to the "French-made" KM badges. Does anyone know anything about these?

Best regards,
---Norm