"Bacqueville" Kriegsmarine Badges are...

[Craig Gottlieb]

This is actually the first one I've sold that I can remember, preferring normally, to stick to Schwerin (as most collectors do). I'm just going with the majority opinion here, but there are smart minds on both sides of this, so I advertised it with a link to this thread, so readers can make up their own minds. Assuming this goes for $300, I have about a $60 interest (commission) in this badge, so I hardly think that counts as a conflict of interest

[birdie]

Here's..a..nice..example

http://www.germanmilitaria.com/Krieg...s/K015364.html


i..side.with..the..majority..These..are..Good!!

[Norm F]

i..side.with..the..majority..These..are..Good!!

Well, I guess now we can say a little birdie told us...

[birdie]

Well, I guess now we can say a little birdie told us...

LOL.....

[John R.]

MS badge thread:

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=622352

[Warren O]

A littel bit of study of German documents and the rules and regulations of the Präsidialkanzlei (not to mention the view the "ruling party" would have on that issue ...) would convince any serious collector and student of history what a nice "invention" these badges are.

But where there is a market, there is an offering! What's next? Imported Knights Crosses from England? Close Combat Clasps made in Kiew?

Dietrich

Maybe not made in England but badges made in Japan?
The Japanese badges look more like the french badge than than German made badges.
As a student I do know that not every badge can be identified in a photo, one of the largest makers of German uniforms was not in Germany, why would any French manufacturer of awards admit to collaborating with the Germans when German companies have refused to do so in the past.
The French Destroyer badge is difficult to discern from"German" made badges of the same type.
In my opinion until there is proof they were not made wartime I will keep an open mind.

[Gregorio Torres]

Maybe not made in England but badges made in Japan?
The Japanese badges look more like the french badge than than German made badges.
As a student I do know that not every badge can be identified in a photo, one of the largest makers of German uniforms was not in Germany, why would any French manufacturer of awards admit to collaborating with the Germans when German companies have refused to do so in the past.
The French Destroyer badge is difficult to discern from"German" made badges of the same type.
In my opinion until there is proof they were not made wartime I will keep an open mind.

There is a big diference: THe germans in Japan were issolated from their fatherland. Germans in France were not. On the other hand this was an unusual reply for an unusual situation.
For me too, while no period pictures of these badges in use were known the authenticity of these "french" badges is very dificult to explain. Even the presumed maker (Baqueville) said they had nothing to do in this story everytime they were asked about it.
So the proof must be given for the people who support the thesis that these items were made during the war.
In my 20 years as collector every defender of these are people who have one or several of these "french" badges.
I have several of them in my collection, and I was one of the "believer", but, studing and researching, now I am quite convinced that they maybe postwar items made in france to tale adventage of the increasing demand of war souvenirs since the 50 or 60´s, and I have my Baquevilles put away from my original awards.
I´ll keep my mind open but I need some proof to believe again

[birdie]

offer

since you're convinced they are fake, I'll take them off your hands for 10.00 each.

[Gregorio Torres]

since you're convinced they are fake, I'll take them off your hands for 10.00 each.

At the moment they are in my fake galery. But if you are interested in this kind of items you´ll have no too much problems to get them. There are in the market almost many of them as all the german makers together.

[Warren O]

There is a big diference: THe germans in Japan were issolated from their fatherland. Germans in France were not. On the other hand this was an unusual reply for an unusual situation.
For me too, while no period pictures of these badges in use were known the authenticity of these "french" badges is very dificult to explain. Even the presumed maker (Baqueville) said they had nothing to do in this story everytime they were asked about it.
So the proof must be given for the people who support the thesis that these items were made during the war.
In my 20 years as collector every defender of these are people who have one or several of these "french" badges.
I have several of them in my collection, and I was one of the "believer", but, studing and researching, now I am quite convinced that they maybe postwar items made in france to tale adventage of the increasing demand of war souvenirs since the 50 or 60´s, and I have my Baquevilles put away from my original awards.
I´ll keep my mind open but I need some proof to believe again

Remember we are talking about regulations regarding manufacture . Because sailors were in Japan for any reason during the war I do not know of any regulation allowing for the manufacture of these badges in Japan.
It would appear to me that French manufacture is likely because many sailors were stationed there. Many other items of uniform wear were made there, as far as a company admitting to such activity,they have a lot to loose if they do.
Like you I own some French badges,3 to be exact and will keep an open mind.

[Norm F]

Hi Guys,

I don't know if we'll ever have a definitive answer as to whether these badges were made during wartime and hidden away until 1970 or post-war produced. This PK announcement from 1942 has been posted before, but it's worth mentioning again:

"It is categorically undesirable that trading of German medals and decorations be operated by foreign companies. A need for this can not be recognized, as holders of German awards can obtain replacement or secondary pieces without much effort from a company from the Reich. The delivery of German orders, decorations and ribbons to foreign firms must therefore be avoided. In supported exceptional cases, the opinion of the Präsidialkanzlei first must be requested."

In other words, foreign firms were not even allowed to distribute awards, let alone make them, although it does allow for the possibility of "exceptional cases"

Despite the Japanese Hilfskreuzer badges being much more rare than the "French-made" zincers we have clear photographic evidence of them in wear during wartime while none such photos exist of the "French-made" zincers.

All the above doesn't preclude the possibility of "French-made" badges being produced in wartime and placed in storage until wide commercial distribution in 1970. But it's clear at least they were never officially condoned or awarded by the KM. But any antiquated item may be worthy of collecting, just so long as it's not misrepresented as an awarded combat badge.

Best regards,
---Norm

[John T]

HI Norm,

For the purposes here what would be defined as a "foreign company"? Many badges were made in Gablonz - part of the Sudetenland occuped by Germany in 1938 after the Munich Agreement while as of 1940 half of France was under the Military Administration of Germany and half (Vichy Govt) was "free". Would any badges then produced in the part administered by Germany be considered made by "foreign" companies. Would areas occupied by Germany be considered as within "The Reich" for purposes of the LDO statement?

John

btw my first enounter with the French pieces was not just items found in storage but vet bringbacks-it seems mostly U-Boat Badges and the coastal artillery pieces-- I can not say if they were produced for the vet-souvenir market or if they were a failed business enterprise by a French company. Certainly the French made items such as overseas caps for the KM but there the LDO issue was not in play. If fictional one would wonder why stop with KM pieces, why not Army Badges, why not LW as well?

[Norm F]

HI Norm,

For the purposes here what would be defined as a "foreign company"? Many badges were made in Gablonz - part of the Sudetenland occuped by Germany in 1938 after the Munich Agreement while as of 1940 half of France was under the Military Administration of Germany and half (Vichy Govt) was "free". Would any badges then produced in the part administered by Germany be considered made by "foreign" companies. Would areas occupied by Germany be considered as within "The Reich" for purposes of the LDO statement?

John

btw my first enounter with the French pieces was not just items found in storage but vet bringbacks-it seems mostly U-Boat Badges and the coastal artillery pieces-- I can not say if they were produced for the vet-souvenir market or if they were a failed business enterprise by a French company. Certainly the French made items such as overseas caps for the KM but there the LDO issue was not in play. If fictional one would wonder why stop with KM pieces, why not Army Badges, why not LW as well?

Hi John,

Firstly, to be clear I'm not saying they weren't made in wartime because I can't know that, only that they weren't KM award pieces. Beyond that, I really couldn't say and continue to weigh the evidence. That's why I find the original wording of this thread's poll inadequate because it polarizes opinion into "wartime" and "post-war fakes" with no middle ground.

The first part of the PK's announcement shown in the previous post is:
"Recently, several foreign companies in the occupied territories or in friendly foreign countries applied for permission to distribute German medals and decorations, and approached German companies with a request for delivery of German medals and decorations, particularly of war medals. It must be observed:....etc."

Certainly, the annexation of the German-speaking areas of the Sudetenland under the Munich Agreement is a different category from the invasion of France, and those German-speaking areas and their industries were thenceforth considered "German". Likewise, Vienna in Austria after Anschluss. France, on the other hand was certainly not in that category.

I've seen postings of those "vet bring-back" stories and that might push the date of manufacture prior to 1970 but unfortunately there's still the significant complication that these collections can be cross-contaminated by additions over the years before they are finally disposed of by the well-meaning family in more recent times. Sometimes one sees old postings from anonymous contributors swearing an item is wartime but with no corroboration, but knowing you and your experience I would certainly trust your observations. Did you actually acquire any of your "vet bring-back" examples prior to 1970?

Being only KM pieces has no bearing on whether fictional or not, IMO. And I don't suppose this crude looking PAB has any bearing one or the other either, but it's funny that the wreath is painted gold like a KM badge!

Best regards,
---Norm

[John T]

HI Norm,

The statement from the LDO as worded would indicate that companies (foreign) produced or at least applied to produce some awards/badges at the time and there was a need to ban this practice or trend for whatever purposes (quality control-protection of German industry-production-security control etc). It is known that in Spain a number of items were made. This would seem to indicate that at least in that situation the LDO had no legal authority to stop production or chose not to press the issue.

The PAB is most curious. I once saw a French type HSF with an Assmann marking added. Obviously that was not correct. I thought it curious as I know there are unmarked FLL badges with bogus markings added and I recently saw a nice Aux Cruiser with a fake marking added ruining the piece.

I do feel that the French badges are reproduced regardless of the original circumstances of "first run" of the badges as I have seen some that have odd hardware.

[Patrick W]

Norm

That PAB features the typical pin style found on repro Bacqueville badges with the slender section in the middle, garbage IMO.
I have absolutely no doubt as to them being wartime, I am almost positive that a photo was posted years back showing a soldier wearing a coastal artillery badge of this type, easily recognisable due to its unique shape.

Here are 4 cased examples that I just picked up at auction, the boxes are typical to this maker, I will endeavour to find out if this was a vet consignment- there was also 2 more being a U-boat and Destroyer that I was outbid on