"Bacqueville" Kriegsmarine Badges are...

[hurricane1952]

Much has been said about these badges but in my opinion, Mr. Weitze is certainly closed to the
truth.

[FrenchVolunteer]

Hi,

Before anything, I must point out that this rant has nothing personal against you GAMS1.

This is painful to see collectors that were fooled, just because they believed a silly story.
This is even worse when the collectors defend ad nauseam fakes without any proof...

This is the same for the "Delande" Croix de Guerre Légionnaire, or the famous "Ordre de la Libération made by Pinches and given to La Monnaie de Paris which marked them" (which is 10000000000000000% proven bogus statement).

In my opinion, French collectors are lacking critical thinking at a very high level. Since i started to study and collect militaria items and especially medals, i was shocked by the incredible bulls**t that is said over and over on the net and on gun shows, which explain why i do not lose any minute of my precious time on French messageboards.
I’m interested by History (with a capital H), not crooks story.

1) No one ever studied on those badges, despite it is proven that Johnson, a famous and confirmed crook (even denounced from other dealers), was involved ("Militaria Magazine" 76, 1991). I’m pretty sure that some people knew that something was fishy, but most of the time “witnesses” are also making money with the fakes.
The fact that "Mr. Weitze said he bought some at the Bacqueville store" doesn’t prove anything about their originality. And despite the fact that Bacqueville themselves confirmed they never made those badges (we need to check if the Bacqueville store sold them or not, which is by the way totally irrelevant about the originally of the badges).

2) You used the same fallacious argument as every single "believer" : "they are real because they exist since a long time, long before internet".
Didn't you saw that fakes exist since the start of WW2 ? There are plently of replies i did on the subject, from Guadalcanal fake Japanese flags to SS cuff titles reproductions sold in the USA before the end of WW2 ("Life Magazine", August 6, 1945 issue).
A scholar/scientist will jump on his chair.
Fakers and crooks love to use pseudoscience arguments.

3) I do not support your political rant about the Socialists and the Shoah.
It is a bit outrageous and should be condemned, it looks very similar to the right-wing antisemitic ideas/rants.
Be sure that Yad Vashem is the first museum to be interested into fighting fakes, especially the ones dealing with the Holocaust. Kriegsmarine badges are the last of their problem I think.
Same for the Mémorial de la Shoah in Paris, who is bying stuff like collectors, and is not used to play the policeman.
On the contrary, JMF Collections International got a famous trial in 1995, at the time it was the right conservative party which was in charge...
The badges surfaced in 1972 (“Militaria Magazine 76), at that time
From 1972 to at least 1978, no problem happened...
And what is the deal of the “Socialists and the Jewish associations” by the way ?
There is a law in France that forbid the sale of nazi items in the open (which seemed the case in Mr. Weitze testimony).
Are you saying that you do not accept this law ?
The article R645-1 was amended in… 1964 !
https://www.legifrance.gouv.fr/affic...Texte=20080608
No matter if the badges or nazi items sold by Bacqueville are legit or not, they can’t legally sell them “in the open” (we all know that most dealers and stores sell under the table nazi memorabilia).

4) You are implying that you are indirectly involved in the fantasy story, because you got some badges from "someone working at the Navy Ministry".
Didn’t you think that you were maybe fooled by someone who was using the same trick as used by Johnson and other dealers/collectors who were spreading the fakes back in the day ?
It seemed to be so obvious…
This is like the crooks that are proposing the Pink Smocks telling people that "they bought them from under the table at the Moscow museum".
What does your testimony proof ? Nothing. Nothing because Johnson said the same thing, like he told bogus stories to sell his fake CDGLs and his fake German daggers.
Anyone can invent a nice story if he wants to sell his crap.
Yeah, the problem without internet is that you need to work to check other testimonies... And unfortunately no one did that because it was hard back in the days… And because people don’t take the chance to loose time and friends with an investigation about something that is “very strange”.
Be sure that with everyone telling this bogus story back in the days, the French Navy Ministry would have made an official inquiry if the story was legit.
The nice part is that if someone from the Defense Ministry is asking you question, you can say “oh this is the story I was told, I can’t prove it, it may be bogus”.
Oh and again you forget the fact that hundred if not thousand of those badges are in collection !
Please explain me how it was possible to have hundred of kilogramms of nazi awards kept in a French Navy Ministry for decades ? And “by miracle” they start to appear in the early 70’s ??? Where they all traded by a young schoolboy to René Johnson ?
The story seemed soooooo ridiculous and bogus.
This is like for the UFOs, you can still find today old veterans saying that they saw the Roswell crash and the bodies of the aliens…
Why ? Because it is a business ! All the French dealers and collectors need to stick to this bogus story, because their stocks/collections are full of those fake badges…
You need to make people believe… This is like for the ponzi scheme, you need to keep people believe that everything is perfect… If not, the pyramid will fall in ruins.
How many stories to promote fakes did I heard since a few years ?

5) I'm sure you will explain how those badges got a "natural bad patina" despite some were found in box. Maybe because their quality, as proven by Jo, is just horrible ?

6) Despite what you say, French collectors currently fully acknowledge those badges... Check the internet, check the Kriegsmarine specialists, check the French books...
This is a pity.

7) "Nobody was even talking about repro at that time".
Wow, it is a good proof that French collectors should quit immediately... They are collecting and buying fakes with nice stories for decades. Not questionning anything.
How can you make the difference between a fake and a legit item ?
The story needs to be “good” ? The badge needs to be “old” ?
The fact is that on French dealer sites the Fakeville badges are proposed for the same prices as the original German badges.

8) The fact that there are many stories for those badges is a good point to say that no one was able to get it right.
What we can say is that René Johnson is said to have been the “patient zero”.
Patient zero who is confirmed as a dealer of other fakes…

9) And to conclude, there is not a single start of proof that Germa regulations may have authorized those ugly badges, and there is no explaination why hundred of kilos of metal were kept in the Navy Ministry during the war or after it.
I know that “believers” will start to say “those badges were made in the Summer of 1944” and that “the hundred of kilos of badges were especially hidden in a secret bunker in the Navy Ministry because they were a German secret weapon”.

See You

Vince

[FrenchVolunteer]

Hi,

There were so many items available back then to collectors that to think that somebody came up with the idea of making a whole series of "French Badges" to fool collectors is beyond belief.

This is why Mr. Weitze jumped on them ? Why would Mr. Weitze have jumped on them when like you said without any proof "so many items available back then" ?

The badges were cheaper than the price of (German) originals, and with a nice and bogus story it was easy to fool French collectors in need (how can you prove that German badges were easily available in France ?).
CQFD. The market + story + lower price = $$$

Johnson is a known crook, and it seemed that despite your opinion, the Fakevilles sold very well !

This is funny because it seemed that many collectors can't get over the fact that the market is flooded by fakes...
This is pretty sad.

See You

Vince

[Norm F]

Magnify 100 accepted non-controversial items to use as a base for what an item surface should look like. Use different types of badges and medals so we can have different reference samples for reference. Then, when you are testing samples in your study do not just take a few of a badge but test 20 of a badge from different sources and obtained over a period of years. Run the study scientifically.

These badges have obviously been faked and that is long known but there are examples going back to vet lots. .

Hi John,

I can appreciate the desire for scientific rigour in forensic analysis, but we're unlikely to see a published thesis in a peer-reviewed scientific journal with a battery of detailed micro-images and collated data on 100 wartime original war badges from 1939 to 1945 to use as a comparator. Having said that, Jo Rivett's less formal experience does indeed present a generous overview of micro-imagery of die struck vs. die cast badges in both his videos and published material. It's clear that the two badges he's using are typical examples of the French-made KM badges that you no doubt would accept as representative of their genre (images attached), and he clearly and methodically shows that the typical U-Boat badge of the "accepted type" is of cast production.

Informal as that is, it's still more rigorous and reliable than the anecdotal evidence of vet bring backs, especially since U.S vets were in France well into the 1960's.

Yes, that still leaves the question as to exactly when they were made and by whom, but leaves no doubt as to the production process.

Best regards,
---Norm

[John R.]

Even slightly political comments or opinions will be deleted from a thread. It is a very bad slope when one starts and deflects from the discussion of the badges.

If somebody sees a comment I missed, PM me.

John

[TOULON44]

The Bacqueville badges were made during the war on behalf of the kriegsmarine. These insignia with or without boxes and especially those of UBoot were released on the flea of Toulon regularly in the 70s until the 90/2000 because they came from individuals whose fathers or grandfathers had looted the arsenal in August 44. At the time, these insignia did not interest people in the same way as the camouflaged German helmets ! ? All the little collectors that we were, looked for the German manufacturing badges as well as the German helmets with badges. But KM Bacqueville insignia were as many as German-made KM insignia. Once I traded with an old gentleman colonial French decorations against 5 Bacqueville insignia that had recovered his father at the arsenal at liberation. A friend of mine had a dozen KM badge including Bacqueville recovered at the base of Bordeaux. On the other bases of kriegsmarine in France, there must have been just as much!
Those who think that these badges are copies, free to them, but they have existed and it is not a story that I tell, that's what I lived !
Toulon 44

[Norm F]

Hi Toulon 44,

Thanks for your post. A few things:

The Bacqueville badges were made during the war on behalf of the kriegsmarine.

I'm sounding like a broken record here, but regardless of when they were made, no one has ever provided any evidence that the manufacturer was Bacqueville, so it continues to be presumptuous and misleading to use this term as opposed to "French-made". None of the the oft retold anecdotes about the Navy headquarters' supplies ever suggest any actual record as to their manufacturer.

It's also presumptuous and misleading to state they were made "on behalf of the Kriegsmarine", since it's quite evident that they were never issued alongside standard awards during the war and were discouraged by the PK. At best, they may have been made in hopes of a market in the Kriegsmarine which was never allowed in the end.

Those who think that these badges are copies, free to them, but they have existed and it is not a story that I tell, that's what I lived !
Toulon 44

No one is saying they are copies per se, since obviously they do not reproduce any known Kriegsmarine awards. The debate centres around when they were made, wartime or post-war, and for what purpose.

The best one can hope for at this point is that these parodies were designed and made by casting techniques in wartime for a market that never materialized until after the war. That theory would still fit with all the observational anecdotes without over-reaching as to motive and maker.

Unfortunately, no new historical data have been presented in the 14 years this discussion thread has been going on; the only new data have been forensic in nature.

Best regards,
---Norm

[Chris Boonzaier]

Just a point.... even if they were Period Made... (And maybe some were... with production started again after the war for collectors.... there is a difference between Period and "Official"...

I think most soldiers who have been deployed overseas have seen local merchants making Insignia Etc to sell to the troops.

There are French Overseas medals made in Lebanon to sell to French UN soldiers based there... Ditto for the French Colinial medals made in Vietnam.... American troops have bought American Insignia made in Vietnam, Thailand, Japan, Iraq etc. etc... In the Balkans in the early 90s they were copying badges to sell to UN soldiers, I had sterling silver dog tags made for me in Central Africa from a guy making French badges... All made for the troops, but by no means official... or even allowed....

And if you go to Vietnam... they are still making them....

So maybe someone did make them in the war in small numbers... and this was increased to big numbers after the war....

[TOULON44]

Hello Norm,
I understand what you mean, but in light of what I wrote yesterday, it seems difficult to continue to wonder if these badges were made during or after the war and by whom!
I insist on the fact that they came from the arsenal of Toulon and that the authenticity is not or more to question.
When you say that no one has ever proven that Bacqueville was the manufacturer, yes you are right, but we learned in the 2000s from Paris collectors who knew where these badges came from and there was no reason to question their words.

It is noted that the Bacqueville society is less than 10 minutes walk from the Ministry of Marine in Paris, so in the same district which, and this is an explanation that is worth another, explain why the kriegsmarine would have chose this manufacturer. There was no reason for the German navy to look for a manufacturer elsewhere. To say that Bacqueville has made all the insignia ... no it is obvious, it has subcontracted, it is the logic, but it is with Bacqueville that the kriegsmarine passed the contract.
We must not forget that all the French companies were enslaved by the Germans and therefore forced to work for them. All the different speakers on this forum agree that the kriegsmarine is made uniforms and hairstyles by French companies during the occupation, but no badges? Why ? That it makes sense to make uniforms and hairstyles but not badges. The kriegsmarine would have made it clear, "Above all, no badges".
This idea of denying the existence of these badges is amazing. Yet a priori, in this forum, nobody asked to see the contracts between the French manufacturers and kriegsmarine for uniforms and hairstyles!
In the same way that, as you say, nobody can prove that the contract exists between Bacqueville and the kriegsmarine, no one can say that these insignia were not commanded by the German navy.

As for believing that a French company is manufactured on its own initiative thousands of badges to win a contract with the German army, it is to ignore that it would have been accused of collaboration in the release and especially that it did not need to make thousands of badges of presentation to have a contract, a sample of each would have been enough and after if the contract is signed one starts the production. If Bacqueville produced so much it is because he had a contract with the German navy.
Now to say that the German soldiers have never worn these insignia, here is a step that I would not cross, nothing proves that they have worn but nothing proves otherwise.

I'm not against everything that was developed in this forum, all ideas are more or less good, but there is a certain logic that should not be hidden from the moment there is no evidence .
For information, in the list ReichBetriebNummer that I own (under any reservation that it is up to date), there are sometimes between two numbers several hundreds or even thousands of manufacturers missing. Example: from 0/0573/0174, we go to 0/0575/0010. Have the missing manufacturers ever existed?

We rely on the documents collectors have and that's a good thing. But it must not be said that, under the pretext that we do not have all the archives, they never existed.

Sincerely

[John R.]

Well thought out post Toulon and thanks for keeping the discussion going. I think you mean "headgear" or "caps" instead of "hairstyles" of course and if you wish, I can go back and make the changes in your post.

I think you have made a very good point though as nobody as far as I know demands contract information for other accepted "French Made" articles worn by the KM.

For example the white overseas fore and aft style caps.

John

[John R.]

Norm,

You are up on badge manufacturing techniques more than I but are there not mold injected late war badges produced for the LW and Heer?

Is mold injected by itself, no matter how sloppy the craftsmanship as proved by Jo, a reason to reject a badge? I know you have left the door open for authenticity (war time made) for these badges as you wait for Part 2 of the video by Jo to explain this exact point.

John

[Norm F]

Hi Toulon 44,

It's important to keep the line drawn between fact and speculation, and everything you have said is conjecture and opinion. That doesn't make it wrong, simply unverifiable.

When you say that no one has ever proven that Bacqueville was the manufacturer, yes you are right, but we learned in the 2000s from Paris collectors who knew where these badges came from and there was no reason to question their words.

Opinions of Paris collectors in the 2000s in the absence of facts provide no basis whatsoever of a link to Bacqueville. It becomes simply a matter of faith, not verifiable history.

All the different speakers on this forum agree that the kriegsmarine is made uniforms and hairstyles by French companies during the occupation, but no badges? Why ? That it makes sense to make uniforms and hairstyles but not badges.

I draw your attention to post #131 of the 1942 announcement wherein it was expressly forbidden by the PK for foreign firms in occupied countries to distribute awards. Thus, it is a fact that this was discouraged, and it is speculation that it occurred anyway against the Präsidialkanzlei's explicit directive.

Best regards,
---Norm

[Norm F]

Norm,

You are up on badge manufacturing techniques more than I but are there not mold injected late war badges produced for the LW and Heer?

Is mold injected by itself, no matter how sloppy the craftsmanship as proved by Jo, a reason to reject a badge? I know you have left the door open for authenticity (war time made) for these badges as you wait for Part 2 of the video by Jo to explain this exact point.

John

Hi John,

Yes indeed. This thread has raced ahead several pages but that was my point back in post #250 when I said:

They are proven by Jo to be cast badges but not “fakes” per se. If we accept that cast late war zinc IABs and Destroyer badges were being made in Lüdenscheid and Vienna, then we have to consider the remote possibility that unofficial cast badges were made in France in 1943.

I also look forward to Jo’s Part II on the French-made S-Boat and perhaps he’ll comment on what constitutes the difference between wartime casting methods and post-war casting methods. And perhaps microscopic examination of a cast Assmann IAB and a cast Souval Destroyer badge would provide revealing comparators.

Best regards,
---Norm

[John R.]

They are proven by Jo to be cast badges but not “fakes” per se. If we accept that cast late war zinc IABs and Destroyer badges were being made in Lüdenscheid and Vienna, then we have to consider the remote possibility that unofficial cast badges were made in France in 1943.

I think there were more mold injected badges than that. I will get back on this subject. John

[Dietrich Maerz]

I draw your attention to post #131 of the 1942 announcement wherein it was expressly forbidden by the PK for foreign firms in occupied countries to distribute awards. Thus, it is a fact that this was discouraged, and it is speculation that it occurred anyway against the Präsidialkanzlei's explicit directive.

I fully agree. The Präsidialkanzlei des Führer, Ordenskanzlei under Dr. Doehle was fully in charge of quality and production of German orders and decorations. Dr. Doehle shut down two German companies for (most likely) not sticking to rules or quality.
The question to ask is why would the Kriegsmarine order from a French company? The requisition of badges was done by the central office in Germany. There were manufactures enough inside the Reich. Why place an order -against the PKZ - to a French company? Makes no sense at all!