"Bacqueville" Kriegsmarine Badges are...

[Leroy]

Here is the brief reply I received from Bacqueville, when I was writing an article on Kriegsmarine badges in 2010, after I sent an inquiry (with photographs) to it:

"MONSIEUR

NOUS VOUS INFORMONS QUE NOUS N'AVONS PAS FABRIQUE CES INSIGNES CHEZ BACQUEVILLE.

MERCI

S.KELLER"

[Norm F]

In the late 1970s, when I was still in high school I travelled with some friends to Paris and found the Bacqueville shop be pure coincidence. When I was looking thru the window I didn’t believe my eyes: next to french orders and regimental badges, several of the KM badges were decorated, some with and some without the cartons: submarine, e-boat, high seas, auxiliary cruisers and coastal artillery badges, mine sweeper badges I don’t remember. But the price was the same: 200 Francs each (today ca. €35,—). So i spent my entire pocket money on the e-boat and auxiliary cruiser badges (the others were still very common and not much more expensive at the time) and had to call my father to send me some more money to get home. For me it was an amazing find, because it was the first time for me to see theses french productions. Most likely I was one the first ones, who brought them to Germany The only other one known before was the one illustrated in Angolia’s reference Book “For Führer and Fatherland”. If I am not wrong , the book was printed around 1975.
I am convinced, that the badges were french war time period production, but different to the french KM breast eagles and sleeve patches, they were not accepted by the Kriegsmarine and never given out during WWII.
It is more then possible, that reproductions of them exist today, which doesn’t make it easier, but the ones from the 1970s were old.
I hope, that I could help the community a bit with my personal experience.

Best regards from Hamburg,
Helmut Weitze

I hadn’t seen this post before my last post. Fascinating account. So from this we can say that Bacqueville at least distributed some badges in the late 1970’s, providing a nucleus for the subsequent reiterations that Bacqueville was the distributor. But really that just means Bacqueville was a seller of the French-made badges in the 1970s, and provides no evidence one way or the other for their involvement during the war.

Having said all that, as said before, I agree with Helmut Weitze’s belief that these were most likely unofficial wartime production and were never used as official awards. We’ve always reliably known they dated back at least as far back as 1970, and several independent U.S vet bring back groupings from France (like this one) provide half-way decent evidence pushing that date back to the end-of-war time period.

Best regards,
—-Norm

[jujuy]

réponse ambiguë.
They answered "we didn't made IN OUR WORKSHPO " not "we didn't sold"

Here is the brief reply I received from Bacqueville, when I was writing an article on Kriegsmarine badges in 2010, after I sent an inquiry (with photographs) to it:

"MONSIEUR

NOUS VOUS INFORMONS QUE NOUS N'AVONS PAS FABRIQUE CES INSIGNES CHEZ BACQUEVILLE.

MERCI

S.KELLER"

[jack1]

These badges are being subject to the microscope by Mr Jo Rivett.It will be very interesting on the outcome.
Real or scam?

[Christian J]

These badges are being subject to the microscope by Mr Jo Rivett.It will be very interesting on the outcome.
Real or scam?

And it was quite interesting.

[Norm F]

Yes indeed, Jo Rivett's latest USB microscopy video of a French-made U-Boat badge was just posted today on youtube and is an excellent (and relatively G-rated) production finally settling at least one question debated over the years: He unequivocally shows that they are not die-struck, but rather produced by an injection mold casting method.

So to summarize what we have now:

Objectively:

1) An almost complete series of cast zinc KM badges, often found in one distinctive type of patterned cardboard carton (a carton which is occasionally now mis-appropriated for other awards one might add).
2) U-Boat, Destroyer, Minesweeper, Auxiliary Cruiser, 1st pattern S-Boat, Fleet and Coastal Artillery badges exist in this series, but for some reason the Minesweeper is vanishingly rare with only one example surfacing to date.
3) Although most employ a direct gilding technique with poor longevity, an occasional few have been posted showing a coppery undercoating not unlike finishing methods for some wartime zinc badges. (But no chemical or elemental analyses available.)
4) From explicit official announcements in 1942 issues of "Schwert und Spaten" and "Uniformen-Markt", clearly the Präsidialkanzlei and the Kriegsmarine could never accept foreign-produced awards of this type for official use.

Subjectively:

1) Earliest first-hand collector accounts and collector publications go back as far as circa 1970.
2) Stories have been presented of U.S. "vet-acquired" examples anecdotally reaching back to the early post-war period in France.
3) Stories have been presented of a former Paris Navy headquarters having large stashes of them.
4) Stories of a now-deceased Dutch dealer commissioning the production of these badges circa 1970.
5) Bacqueville denies any involvement in their production, although a first-hand account suggests they did in fact market some in the late 1970s.

If one were to cling to the hope that the "French-made" badges were produced in wartime knowing they're not die struck, one would have to suppose that they were produced by late wartime casting techniques as are believed to have been employed in Lüdenscheid (e.g. Assmann) and Vienna (e.g. Souval) -- but those products at least show tell-tale ejector markings. Certainly a leap of faith, but hope springs eternal...

Best regards,
---Norm

[vacollector]

Personally, I know nothing about these badges. So I have no dog in the fight, but much like FLL FJ badges I would need concrete evidence before I jump in and buy any of them.

[FrenchVolunteer]

Hi,

link on the video part 1 :

https://youtu.be/oAEKgiud9Y4

See You

Vince

[John R.]

Vince, thanks for the link. It will make it a bit easier for those interested in this discussion to view video.

First, since Jo used the "The Kriegsmarine Awards" pages on the Bacqueville French Made War Badges in his video, I think it is important that I explain who wrote that chapter (Chapter XI) pages 795 to 813.

In addition, he used Gentry R. P. Ferrell's article in Dietrich's magazine "International Medal Collector" on the S-Boat badge in 2010 where he described the so called French made badges as "die struck". So the term "die struck" does not appear in the "Kriegsmarine Awards" although in the tables the term "Stamping Method" was used in conjunction with the terms "solid" and "hollow" and "semi-hollow" to describe the visual appearance of these badges. Those terms were not meant to imply die struck but the use of the term "Stamping Method" is unfortunate and not precise.

In the case of the "Kriegsmarine Awards" , the authors of the German version were Weber and Skora. All 1023 pages were extensively rewritten and edited by Norm and myself. This certainly applies to Chapter XI. So errors in the English book and that chapter are the product of Norm and I, not the work of Weber and Skora nor should they be blamed for such errors.

Norm and me agreed to proceed on the basis of forensic comparative analysis (as opposed to microscopic analysis) and the idea of microscopic analysis never was broached. A hand held magnifying glass and the ability to greatly enlarge badge images on a computer screen were part of our tools of course.

When Norm told me about the video, I honestly was hoping that Jo would be proving the badges period since so many are in collections worldwide. Neither Norm or I have ever believed in them (see screen capture) but if we were wrong, that should be known and admitted to the collecting community that depends on this forum to validate and authenticate KM war badges and clasps.

Jo did an outstanding job in the video and he conclusively has proved that these badges are mold injected fakes and that the recommendation of Norm and I to avoid these badges was correct.

At this point, I just want to say that the motivation of Norm and myself in writing the Dietrich published book was to help collectors avoid the fakes produced by con men and crooks over the last 50 years at least, nothing more. While we made a poor choice in the table terminology, the narrative section was exactly right.

Dietrich made it very clear from day 1 that fakes should be identified and any book published by him not include fakes (and if included identified) and no matter whose toes we stepped on that the book be best that could be written to help collectors avoid the crooks out there peddling their wares.

Other errors were made in the German version, and we corrected them, but then we made mistakes in the English version, many corrected in Volume III, now out of print unfortunately. If we could write Volume IV (do not worry Dietrich, we know it is impossible) we would and for sure the research and microscopic analysis of Jo Rivett would be included extensively.

In any case, the video is a must view for those that collect KM war badges in general and these "French Made" types specifically.

If you were on the fence before the video, I see no possible way you could be on the fence anymore.

Please view the video and I look forward to the second part of the series. I have no doubt it will confirm the results of the U-boat badge and if Jo studied every single badge of the series he most probably will simply confirm what Part 1 states.

Norm, if you disagree with anything I have stated above, I am sure you will respond, but I think I have summarized the situation to date.

John

[Norm F]

Jo did an outstanding job in the video and he conclusively has proved that these badges are mold injected fakes and that the recommendation of Norm and I to avoid these badges was correct.
...
If you were on the fence before the video, I see no possible way you could be on the fence anymore.
...
Norm, if you disagree with anything I have stated above, I am sure you will respond, but I think I have summarized the situation to date.

John

For the most part I agree with John’s post aside from one point. At this time, there remains one tiny perch “on the fence” regarding these badges that I alluded to before. They are proven by Jo to be cast badges but not “fakes” per se. If we accept that cast late war zinc IABs and Destroyer badges were being made in Lüdenscheid and Vienna, then we have to consider the remote possibility that unofficial cast badges were made in France in 1943.

I also look forward to Jo’s Part II on the French-made S-Boat and perhaps he’ll comment on what constitutes the difference between wartime casting methods and post-war casting methods. And perhaps microscopic examination of a cast Assmann IAB and a cast Souval Destroyer badge would provide revealing comparators.

It could be that last tiny perch on the fence will eventually be eliminated as well by further forensic study.

As noted before, if truly a late 1960’s/early 1970’s creation as they’re beginning to seem, this series of KM badges would be a hoax par excellence in the complexity of their conception and execution right down to the occasional coppery undercoating, properly constructed cardboard cartons and paper packing. All other fake KM badges are castings made from or based upon an original rather than a de novo series of unique designs. And (being a Minesweeper collector) I’m intrigued by the one Minesweeper badge we’ve seen and why there are no more of them (unless it was a simple matter of the mold breaking). Even so, I’ve always felt that the eagle designs on this series expressed a parody rather than an emulation of the German design.

This has certainly been a “grand old thread” in the KM forum over the last 14 years, and I’m glad to see it coming alive with Jo’s new evidence.

Best regards,
—-Norm

[FrenchVolunteer]

Hi,

i was sent page 798 of this article, and i discovered that Bertrand Malvaux, French dealer and specialist of Napoleonic militaria, made an article in "Militaria Magazine" #76 (November 1991) in which he is reported an(other) "unbelievable" story about the Fakeville badges origin.

And guess what ?
Who is said to be the guy who "surfaced" the badges/provided the story ?

René Johnson, the guy who is behind the distribution of the Croix de Guerre Légionnaire "Delande" family of fakes !

René Johnson, who told at least two similar "unbelievable" stories to "legitimate" the hundred of fakes Croix de Guerre Légionnaire he sold over the years.

René Johnson, who is said to have been also involved in fake German daggers (testimony of another French dealer i recently got).

Now it seemed that Johnson was able to flood France with fake CDGL, as other local dealers got his fake CDGL.
So we may suspect that if Johnson is involved in the distribution of the Fakeville (which would have been traded to him by a schoolboy who probably traded hundred if not thousand of badges if the story told in "Militaria Magazine" is real), he was able to flood "easily" the market in France and Europe.

Then it could be interesting to contact the Bacqueville store again and ask them : "Mr. Weitze of Hamburg made a testimony that he bought those KM badges from your store in 1978, can you confirm that you sold - or not - those badges (not made by you by the way) in your store at that time ?".

See You

Vince

PS : i will provide scans of the "Militaria Magazine" issue as soon as i get it.

[Norm F]

Hi Vince,

I look forward to your scans of the article. I’m not familiar with René Johnson aside from your earlier post in which, if I understand correctly, you suggested he fabricated a story to support a fake CDGL in the late 1950’s/early 1960’s? To your knowledge, when did René Johnson’s “career” begin?

If the French-made badges could be traced back farther from the 1970’s to the late 1950’s, it might better explain how they got into older U.S. veterans’ collections, especially since it’s my understanding that the U.S. military had a continuous presence in France until France’s withdrawal from NATO in 1966.

Best regards,
—-Norm

[Leroy]

Then it could be interesting to contact the Bacqueville store again and ask them : "Mr. Weitze of Hamburg made a testimony that he bought those KM badges from your store in 1978, can you confirm that you sold - or not - those badges (not made by you by the way) in your store at that time ?".

Why don't you just contact them yourself? I'm sure that, European to European, you could have great success.

When I wrote them all those years ago, the simple question in the "collector world' was whether these badges had been made by Bacqueville or Mourgeon (so that at least the "label" assigned to them would be accurate). Those were the two candidates at the time. Nothing was known about Helmut Weitze's experiences as a teenager or the now-alleged involvement of a "René Johnson".

As far as I know, nothing has changed regarding our understanding of the position of German authorities at the time: Foreigners should not be a source of German badges.

[jack1]

So there we have it.
Not good gents.

[Dietrich Maerz]

So there we have it.
Not good gents.

No need to go overboard, dear Jack. Jo's educational and G-rated expose is only proving what has been suspected by knowledgeable collectors since a very long time. As Gentry pointed out, there was a written prohibition against manufacturing of orders and medals outside of Germany. For any serious student of the hobby this was enough evidence already, as pointed out in the book "The Kriegsmarine Awards, Vol. II, page 799 (2011). From that point onwards even the English collector community should have known. This thread here (something you will not find on facebook ....) is and was of course also a huge nail in the coffin.

It is great that thanks to Jo the argument against these badges has become a lot stronger, if not deadly already.

So no need to "scream"!