mini Minesweeper stickpin

[Norm F]

By the way, I believe this idea of comparing minis to fullsized badges is a legitimate and useful exercise, for detailed minis anyway. The reason I say this, is the remarkable similarities between the L/21 marked 16 mm mini MS and the full-size L/21 Foerster&Barth MS badge. I don't want to borrow images from other forums without permission, but Skip posted an L/21 mini and Jan Arne posted a full-size on GMIC. Placed side by side the similarities are obvious.

Best regards,
---Norm

[Peter J.]

Hi Norm,

When I first saw this thread (thanks for the headsup Andy), my thoughts leaned towards Mayer regarding my two 16mm minis. Still, comparing them to a full sized MS will most probably present minor differences in details, the thickness of the swastika being one. If we can accept these minor anomalies, I have no problems with using this method as a tool to determine the origin

cheers
Peter

[Norm F]

Hi Norm,

When I first saw this thread (thanks for the headsup Andy), my thoughts leaned towards Mayer regarding my two 16mm minis. Still, comparing them to a full sized MS will most probably present minor differences in details, the thickness of the swastika being one. If we can accept these minor anomalies, I have no problems with using this method as a tool to determine the origin

cheers
Peter

Hi Peter,

I find it interesting that you and I independently noticed the similarity of your mini to Mayer.
As you say, there are certainly significant differences between minis and full-sized, as one would expect given the difficulty in producing such small versions -- they all seem to have the skinny Hakenkreuz -- and yet in other ways each mini seems to have a certain style evocative of a particular full-sized.

Here's another closer comparison of Andy's mini to the Souval full-sized, this time an example previously posted by pzb14.

[Norm F]

L/21 mini

Many thanks to Skip and Jan Arne from GMIC for allowing me to post here their pics of an L/21 maker-marked mini and L/21 marked full-sized minesweeper.
This is interesting to see the similarities and differences in the two versions by the same maker, namely Foerster & Barth of Pforzheim.

On the obverse you can see much similarity in style, including the bottom central oak-leaf binding, the waves, waterspout, even the Hakenkreuz in this version. But the eagles head is lower and not cut out at the shoulders or under the wings -- concessions to the small size of production.

Best regards,
---Norm

Skip's mini on the left and Jan Arne's fullsize on the right.

[Norm F]

reverse

You can see that on the reverse these L/21 badges, look more different. The obverse features show more similarity, but the outer and inner margins of the mini are much smoother, less cut out, so that the reverse loses detail.

So now we've seen examples of 4 different makers on this thread so far. Any more?


Once again, Skip's L/21 mini on the left and Jan Arne's full-size L/21 on the right.

[Norm F]

Gordon Williamson had some images of minis from the wartime catalogues of S&L and Otto Schickle which he's allowing me to post here for the purposes of this discussion.
First, from the 1940 Steinhauer & Lück catalogue, these depictions, possibly stylized, of their minesweeper and 16 mm mini. Note the description of the colours: "Kranz gold, Wasser altsilber, Wassersäule silber".

[Norm F]

S&l

Now, here is a blowup of Andy's mini next to a blowup of the S&L mini from the catalogue. Far from conclusive of course with these fuzzy images and the fact the catalogue depictions may be stylized, but nevertheless for all the minis on this thread so far, the water plume outline on Andy's mini seems the best match to the S&L mini.

[Norm F]

Next, a page from the 1940 supplement to the catalogue of Otto Schickle of Pforzheim. In this case, the picture looks more like a black and white photo rather than the line drawing depictions of S&L.

[Norm F]

Schickle comparison

And now, a blowup of the Otto Schickle mini next to a blowup of Peter's unmarked 16 mm mini minesweeper posted earlier.
Not an exact match but again some striking similarities, this time in the cutout of the wreath, and the tall central spike on the water plume.
Interestingly earlier we noted some stylistic similarities between Peter's mini and a full-sized unmarked B. H. Mayer. Interestingly, B. H. Mayer is another Pforzheim maker like Otto Schickle...I leave everyone to draw their own conclusions if any.

[Norm F]

So there you go folks. We have a great thread so far on mini-minesweepers.

So far we know definite makers of the 16 mm mini were:
Foerster & Barth of Pforzheim (marked L/21)
Otto Schickle of Pforzheim (from wartime catalogue)
Steinhauer & Lück of Lüdenscheid (from wartime catalogue)

So far on this thread we have seen examples of 4 minis:
Foerster & Barth (marked L/21)
Andy's unmarked "S&L-like" which also resembles a full-sized Rudolf Souval a bit
Peter's unmarked "Schickle-like" which also resembles a full-sized B.H. Mayer a bit
My unmarked "Deumer-like" which is a compelling stylistic match to Deumer of Lüdenscheid

Please post your minis and join the discussion!

Best regards,
---Norm

[Andy B.]

Norm, I appreciate the hard work!!! Well done. I will get better pics of mine soon, I have been slammed at work and home (sorry). I would like to mention that the mini came with a full size RS minesweeper at the point of purchase (by my father back in the '60s). I don't know if they originally were together or not (meaing that they were issued to the same person). I will endevour to find out when I see him this weekend for the superbowl.
Again, well done Norm.

[Andy B.]

Here is the closer up view of mine......

[Andy B.]

and the reverse.......

[Norm F]

A beautiful mini it is, Andy.
I've now found pictures of 2 mini-Minesweepers from the same maker as yours. I tried to contact the posters but received no reply so I hope it's okay to repost the pictures here for this comparison for educational purposes.
Here you see obverse and reverse from left to right of minis originally posted by Mark McShane, Erik65 and Andy. Clearly all the same maker with nicely matching detail, base metal (allowing for camera flash) and pin types. Interestingly, Mark's came along with an R.S.S. full-size, Erik65's came with an "AS in triangle" full-size and Andy's came with an R.S. full-size. Just goes to show you that you can't judge a mini's maker by the company it keeps!

[Norm F]

Now I want to compare this "S&L-like" mini with a full-sized S&L minesweeper.
Bear in mind from the previous L/21 comparison in post #20 that we expect to see some differences in the cutouts/contours between the 2 sizes by the same maker.

Here's Mark's 16 mm on the left and Gordon Williamson's full-sized early tombak unmarked S&L from GMIC on the right. I would say that, despite the differences in the water plume margin cutouts, there is remarkable similarity in the eagle style, including the eagle's "beard", and in the waves and wreath and overall finish.