Propless U-boat Badge (pictures)

[W. C. Stump]

ANOTHER OPINION

Fellows....I still don't like the badge, but after looking at the reverse, it is absolutely NOT a "Cave Creek Special". As I recall the "CCS's" they were marked Schwerin and looked near to what an original Schwerin badge looked like. Detlev may be right that this is a period badge, but I still don't like it even if Admiral Donitz told me it was original. At least Detlev offered to take it back. what more can he do? It even may be an undiscovered badge, but even then, I would pass on it. I highly respect Detlev's knowledge and he makes mistakes, but will come straight up and admit them. I will share my plate of crow with him anytime as he is an honorable man.

[Detlev Niemann]

Good morning.
Thanks for all the informative and serious comments on this badge.I still believe this badge to be original. Crudly repaired with a typical war period pin back. But as I have written to the buyer I have no problems in taking the badge back. If the collector is not happy he is always free to (and should) return the badge.He is the one to look at it every day and having a badge in his collector that he doesn't like looking at is the wrong badge to have. Also wether or not this badge is original it#s also not nice to have a badge which collector friends dislike. So in any case anyone should always return what he doesn't like or is not happy with. I do it that way with what I buy. Simple and easy
regards
detlev

[dm5000]

Thanks for your help....

Yes, my friend Detlev is correct. He offered immediately to take this item back for a full refund, no strings attached. If I return it, he can hold on to the money for me because I will undoubtedly be purchasing more from him very soon.

Fake, Original? After everything that has been said, I still don’t know. I also have a huge amount of respect for Detlev’s judgment but of the hundreds of collectors who have viewed this thread, none have been able to steer me towards a picture or reference of another badge like this one. Surely, if this is an original, it wasn’t the only propless U-boat badge made? Ill wait a week and see if someone can post a picture or reference of a similar badge before it makes the long, sad trip back to Hamburg.

It may very well be an original, but in my beautiful family of Kriegsabzeichen (many, many of which have come from Detlev), this badge will always be the strange Uncle who only shows up at weddings to fart and tell inappropriate jokes. He may well indeed be original family, but we will always look at him funny and wonder.

Thanks for your help,
Dave

[Doug See]

It's hard to tell from a photo, but it does not look like there was ever a catch attacehd to the lower wreath on the back, where most catches on u-boat badges are. If this was a replacement, there should be some evidence of the original catch. I've never seen a catch mounted in the center of the badge. This is normally where the "Scwerin" inscription is (many Schwerin's are un-marked, also.)

There is a photo of a propless u-boat badge (looks like the same die) in The Iron Time by S. Previtera. It's toward the back in the section where he interviews EK winners. It is pictured next to a zinc badge. The badge in Iron Time has drawn criticism on this Forum also and someone commented that the veteran may have purchased it post-war. Who knows?

I have held this type of propless badge in one hand, and a known original Schwerin badge with prop in my other hand. Having the two side by side, I saw a big difference in 1) the finish of the propless badge looked like gold paint; the Schwerin was definitely gilt , 2) The detail of the eagle and wreath leaves of the propless badge looked "melted" and dull (cast), compared to the Schwerin die stamping. It's possible this is a "variant", but I've seen an awful lot of these propless badges for sale at gun shows, on eBay, and on Epier (maybe 10-12 in the past two years, not counting the mail order ones sold by Cave Creek). In itself, that's not a good sign. I've seen the classic gilt Schwerins with props available maybe 2 or 3 times from the same sources.

[Bob Hritz]

Here is a fake U-Boat badge.

Bob Hritz




This is an enlargement of the lack of propellor.

[dm5000]

What do you think?

Thanks for the great pictures Bob. My badge is virtually the same thing. A couple small details exist on my badge that I was unable to find on yours. Also, it may be the guilding or the photo angle but the details on my badge seem more pronounced. Perhaps casting vs. stamping?
Can we say that they are very, very similar but different enough not to have been cast/stamped out of the same mold/die? Is it rational to assume that the “same” fake would come from two different molds/dies? Perhaps…

Mine is also fairly heavily vaulted. Yours and Von Schroeter’s (see below) appear to be flat.

I have also “borrowed” the image that Doug refers to in “The Iron Time” which is owned by Horst von Schroeter and appears very similar to both of ours. You can’t see in this poor picture I took but in the book, Von Schroeter’s badge appears to have something that looks like weeds (for lack of a better term) growing out of the stern. Neither yours nor Von Schroeter’s have the double baffle that mine displays in the stern (which don't exist on any U-Boat I have seen), which although it appears to be integral to the badge, could have been added afterwards with a file. Either way, its got me baffled. It seems the more I learn about this, the less I know.

Dave

[Michel]

Hi All,

Why only this maker have a projecting ballast ????

All the others are differents, the ballast / bridge separation is always stylized by a depth ligne...

Regards

Michel

[rhudspith]

Exactly my thoughts, never did like this feature. Better to stick to text book examples until this is proven beyond a doubt.

Rob

[dm5000]

A "textbook" example?

I assume you mean a common type badge. Textbook example would assume that the textbook was correct. My badge (probable fake) and Bob's badge (known fake) are virtually the same badge as the badge fotographed in the possession of Horst von Schroeder, Knights Cross winner on page 427 of "The Iron Time" (which many consider a textbook for the EK/RK). Is it probable that von Schroeder would have purchased an additional postwar fake to keep boxed up some drawer somewhere (to drag it out later and present it for photographing in a reference book on original badges)? I dont know.. I guess so...

Gordon Williamson is a KM badge wiz.... Gordon, do you have an opinion on this badge?

Thanks,
Dave

[rhudspith]

Dave,

Sorry for any misunderstanding, perhaps the phrase is not used in the states as it is in the UK. What I mean by a "text book" example is that it is an example of which everyone is in agreement and is universally excepted as an original being identical to known provenanced pieces.

I do not mean that it is the same as a picture shown in a particular text book. As we all know these quite often turn out to be reproductions as you rightly say.

Unfortunately I am not able to post photos at the moment but if you email me I can send you some photos of a Schwerin copy in this type of badge.

Regards

Rob

[dm5000]

I know what you mean....

Sorry, Rob. Actually, I did understand what you meant, I was just being facetious. Sorting this mess out gets quite frustrating when everwhere you look, including reference books, there are fakes lurking to trip you up. Please send me the pics and I will post them, I sent you my email address...

Dave

[Gordon Williamson]

Firstly, the positioning of the catch on the back of the submarine is correct on some wartime pieces.

This is exactly where the Wernstein firm placed their catch (the makers mark W being in the position at the base of the badge where you'd normally expact to find the catch). Also, strangely enough, the type of hinge on this one is identical to the hinge used by Wernstein, but the badge itself certaibly isn't a Wernstein piece.

It would be a rash man who would state categorically that no original U-Boat badge ever existed without a propellor, but we do know that fakes abound with this feature missing, so like Jody, I wouldn't be keen to have one.

[dm5000]

Uncle Stinky stays…..

After much thought, I have decided to keep “Uncle Stinky” in my family of Kreigabzeichen. A lot of very thoughtful and knowledgeable people took a look at him and most all had mixed feelings. I appreciate your feedback. I wouldn’t swear that mine is an original, but I think the evidence is slightly in its favor.

The arguments against this badge can be read above in this thread. There are a couple of points in favor of an original prop-less U-Boat badges which are worth mentioning:

1. The consensus of the collecting/dealer community is mixed, tilted just slightly in favor of an original badge existing. Several responses (Detlev included) were quite sure that originals of this type exist. Most responses were along the lines of “I am very skeptical of this badge, but not enough to declare that it is a fake.” Very few responses indicated that they were quite sure it was a fake.
2. I still have a hard time accepting the premise that the badge on page 427 of the Iron Time is a fake. It seems improbable to me that this badge, which was in the possession of Knights Cross winner Horst von Schroeder, would be offered to Previtera as an original when the owner knew it was not. It also seems improbable to me that von Schroeder would endeavor to acquire a post-war fake to supplement his other U-boat badge, neither of which he was allowed to display.
3. If you accept the premise that all prop-less U-boat badges are fakes, you have to accept that some fakers are basing their designs on other fakes. It is pretty clear that these did not all roll out of the same mold. The clarity and shear marks on my badge indicate to me that my badge was stamped. I have seen known fakes which were clearly cast. Also, subtle differences appear in design which takes me to my last point…..
4. One thing I have learned by viewing all the pictures that were sent to me, is that there is at least one discernable difference between badges that are known to be fakes and badges that may be originals. I have posted a couple of examples. The badges on the LEFT are “POSSIBLE ORIGINALS”, the badges on the RIGHT are “KNOWN FAKES”. The leaf just to the left of the bottom X ribbon has a distinct vein on the badges which may be originals and is clearly flat on those that are known to be fakes. I hope these observations are of some use to collectors. Good luck…
Dave

[Mark S.]

deja vue all over again?

Shot in the dark here....but whats to say that the person responsible for the fake "cave creek" badge sans propeller used an original subbadge that had the same characteristic?

To wit, the High Seas Fleet badge with the weak deck window. We all know that there exsists a genuine badge by Schwerin of this type, and a fake with the same characteristic. More likely than not, a fake was cast off of one of the originals that had the flaw.

Why a maker of reproductions would use a flawed badge to use as a master, no one will ever know. A simple flaw that no one ever noticed before, all of a sudden became a focal point in the HSF badges, and at one point, even real ones were having their originality called into question. Unfortunately, news of the fake spread faster than the realisation of the real ones like this, and many people still refuse to believe that there are real HSF badges with weak bridge windows.

Perhaps this is the same case with the Submariner badge. We all know that there is a well made fake with no propeller, but perhaps in the frenzy of misidentification real ones were inevitably thrown into the same basket.

Judging from the views expressed here on both sides, I think this might be a subject that needs to be more throughly investigated.

Just my 2 cent worth!

Mark

[Doug See]

I think that if someone used an "original" propless badge as a master for a fake, we'd see a heck of a lot more difference in detail between propless "orignals" and propless "copies". I've seen several of these propless badges, and they all look similar in detail. There are some differences in the gold paint finishes and some minor casting flaw differences which I think may be just different production runs.

Hold a typical Schwerin badge in one hand and any one of these propless ones (some are marked Schwerin and some aren't) and you can see a huge difference in gilt finish and detail. The differences everyone is seeing here in the photos are very, very minor and many of them are optical due to variances in lighting and photo quality.

Just my opinion, and I could be wrong, but I still think these are all post-war badges. I've heard from dealers that the props were omitted by the copy maker to purposely differentiate these from wartime examples. Yes, I know that's also "hearsay", but after owning two of these propless ones, and finally getting a Schwerin badge I was 100% comfortable with, I wouldn't have one back except as a $75 example of a "mystery". Just my opinion, and I hope I am someday convinced I am wrong.