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**Doug See** · 03-21-2002, 10:04 PM

Sorry to say, but that's a Cave Creek Special.

**W. C. Stump** · 03-21-2002, 10:13 PM

SOUR AS A WORMY GREEN APPLE

Doug is right and is an expert now on this badge.

**Doug See** · 03-21-2002, 10:55 PM

Bill's correct. I am the top expert on the propless Cave Creek u-boat badge. My qualifications for this esteemed expert title?

Well......er.......uh.....I was burnt not once, but TWICE by buying two versions of this fake a while back. One with a cut-out swaz and one like this with a solid swaz. Bill counseled me through weeks of "therapy" sessions as I went from anger, denial, disbelief, rationalization, wishful thinking, and finally...having to admit my badges were fakes.

**Ron Birch** · 03-21-2002, 11:21 PM

But isn't there a new fake out with the prop and correct markings. I believe it was glossed over on another thread, I think Bill Stump seen one at the SOS if I'm not mistaken.

**W. C. Stump** · 03-21-2002, 11:38 PM

NEAR PERFECT

Ron they are close, but no cigar. Their embryonic brothers are still around and will be for a long time, but more people are becoming better educated now and the prices they first brought have dropped drastically.

**Ron Birch** · 03-21-2002, 11:46 PM

I'm curious about a badge I seen earlier, it was marked L/56 but the deck gun seemed to be higher than other badges i've seen. Also the color seemed more copper ( from the picture) but is the maker mark of L56 correct? Was there any slight differences made in this badge over the years. I'm asking this because of the deck gun is higher.

**W. C. Stump** · 03-22-2002, 12:30 AM

L/56

This U-Boat badge was produced by the firm of Funckle und Bruninghaus, Ludenshied. They were all produced in zinc, had a non-segmented swastika, a vertical hinged pin, and had a wide chest on the eagle. The LDO code is in high relief in the center of the badge. The deck cannon was higher than most and is one of the distinguishing features of the badge.

**Ron Birch** · 03-22-2002, 02:06 AM

Thanks " obewan " ...................sorry Bill I couldn't resist

**dm5000** · 03-23-2002, 10:51 AM

Help me out.....

Ok, here is the story on the fake U-boat badge. Detlev Niemann sold it to me. This is a good point to stop and say that I emailed Detlev my concerns about the badge and that same day he had got back to me to say that it was fine to send it back to him and he would give me a full refund, no questions asked. Even though I got what I think is a bad item, I would still highly recommend Detlev, he is still my first choice in dealers…..

That being said, two things bother me a little about returning this item:

1. After sending close-ups of the missing propeller and a link to this thread, Detlev still insists that this is NOT a Cave Creek copy and is in fact an original badge. Yes, a reasonable person say that he is obviously biased in this argument, but I have been buying from him for a long time and it would be unlike him to be pissing into the wind over a Cave Creek copy. Biased or not, he has had a lot of U-boat badges pass through his hands.

2. I like everything else about the badge. It is of higher quality then some of the other badges I have handled at shows. It is a very heavy vaulted tomak with wonderful detail.

To things make me want to return the item:

1. I can’t find a picture in all the references I have seen of an identical badge.

2. I know you guys have talked and researched this thing to death and have come to the conclusion (If I remember correctly, it has been a while) that there are no prop-less U-boat badges.

Could you please help me out and push me towards returning this item, I would appreciate it. I can’t find the link to the thread about the Cave Creek badges. Can you post a link to it or repost the pictures of the bad badges so that I can compare?

Thanks for your help,
Dave “I hope they have oars cause the prop is missing” Mote

**Doug See** · 03-23-2002, 07:46 PM

I could be mistaken, but I seem to remember Detlev having one of the bad Frank and Reif u-boat badges for sale on his site about three months ago. After a couple of people questioned him, I believe he pulled it off of his listings the next day and posted on this forum that he had listed it in error. This might be a similar case. These badges are very well made, I'll admit, but I've never heard anyone defend one as original WWII. Also, there is a little "hole" on the sub's hull just forward of where the prop should be. This appears to be a vent hole from casting, another bad sign.

Can you post a photo of the reverse?

**dm5000** · 03-24-2002, 09:27 AM

Here is the back....

The pin and catch replacement looks a lot like other wartime replacements, so it doesnt tell you a whole lot unless you assume that it is a fake with a bad pin and someone was trying to get rid of a pin and catch that was an obvious give away.

Did yours have a bad pin and catch?

The scratches on the back look much worse in the picture then they really are. They darkened and became pronouced when I used a contrast feature in photoshop to get the picture a little clearer. I cant find any "casting" voids on the back even using a jewelers loupe. When I doubted the badge, I thought perhaps the scratches were an attempt to hide voids but I cant find any and I would assume that a faker would buff them out. I am thinking that it was purely a sloppy catch replacement of which I have several in my collection.

What do you think? And do you have any old pictures of your Cave Creek to post?

Thanks for your help,
Dave

**Doug See** · 03-24-2002, 11:37 AM

I returned my badge to Cave Creek. Mine had what appeared to be a typical Schwerin type pin on the back. The vent hole I am referring to on yours is on the front, about 1/8" to the left of the rudder, and up on the hull. it looks like a pin hole and is very clear in your photo.

The right thing to do is deal directly with Detlev on this, get his opinion, and do what you feel comfortable doing. I am sure Detlev will not intentionally pass off a bad badge.

The only problem with this badge without a propellor is that it is widely believed to be post-war. It would take a lot of concrete evidence to prove that badges of this type are authentic and to clear it's "reputation", right or wrong.

Again, I am NOT an expert on u-boat badges. What I learned about this badge I learned from several experienced and respected collectors. When I had it, I sent scans of mine to Bill Stump, Gordon Williamson, Gunnar Stephan, and if I remember correctly, possibly even Detlev. No one like it.

**Jody** · 03-24-2002, 03:54 PM

U-boat Badge

Hi Doug,
Don't forget, you showed it showed it to me too.:-) Just kidding. Living here in Arizona I have seen my fare share of propellerless U-boat badges. I saw one yesterday while looking at antiques. I wouldn't want one.

It would be like finding a Luftwaffe Pilot's badge with a Juncker mark and a 68 proof. Or a RK by S&L with the flaw on the beaded rim, I wouldn't want one of those items either.

When it comes to militaria, there are too many textbook examples out there. Don't invest in a so-called variant.
Regards,
Jody

**Doug See** · 03-24-2002, 08:28 PM

Sorry Jody, I forgot I did send it to you. There was also my ex-wife's sister in law, my brother's boss, the mailman, Der Rittmeister's Russian Blue cat, and a cast of thousands. And still, no one liked it. Seriously, I appreciated your comments and patience.

I hope Detlev can shed some light. Not trying to embarrass anyone, I would very much value his opinions and comments on it.

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Propless U-boat Badge (pictures)

Propless U-boat Badge (pictures)

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