That is exactly what I mean.
John
John
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Ah, deductive reasoning!
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Yes, to me, the only logical maker for "AS in triangle" is still Scholze. All the circumstantial evidence supports this, and Pavel's findings virtually clinch it.
But the fact remains that there are two separate lines of PABs using much the same crimping style, "A.S." and "A.S. in triangle". It would be a no-brainer if we saw two badges from the same obverse die and trimming tools with the two different marks, but this isn't the case - they're from different tooling. And I can't think of a single other maker who would produce two separate versions of the same badge in parallel.
It's that one fact that has always mades me hesitate in the Scholze attribution. But if you invoke the theory of a separately tooled operation with Scholze as the major partner in alliance with other investors, maybe that explains it? And if Scholze's original A.S. line was the only entity to move to Neugablonz after the war, maybe that also explains why the history of the joint venture and "AS in triangle" logo was lost to later generations of employees in Bayern.
As crazy as Tom's "triangle on the map" theory sounds, it may well be close to the truth, even the logo only represents a joint business of some sort rather than the 3 cities of Berlin, Mittweida and Gablonz.
Best regards,
---NormComment
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I just have a question for Tom and Norm. How do you know that the PAB was made in parallel and not at different production times?
JohnLast edited by John R.; 08-12-2010, 10:15 PM.Comment
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I guess I can see the logic in the reasoning here but it still ends up with Adolf Scholze as the lead manufacturer.Originally posted by Norm F View Post
JohnComment
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Tom or other PAB guys could answer that better, but I wondered the same thing. I gather there are already 3 types of A.S. PAB -- buntmetall hollow, zinc hollow and zinc semi-hollow with a logical progression from one to the next. As well there are three variants of "AS in triangle", all zinc semi-hollow.Originally posted by John Robinson View Post
It seems reasonable to me that the 3 PAB "AS in triangle" variants could be after the A.S. zincers, in much the same way that the marked "AS in triangle" minesweeper badge seems to be after the unmarked zinc and tombak versions. But there may be something more to the PAB story that those guys know so I'll wait for them to weigh in.
---NormComment
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Could you post the MS sequence images for AS here as you see it?Originally posted by Norm F View Post
JohnComment
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Hi guys,Originally posted by Norm F View Post
This is correct Norm, there are 3 distinct variants of each "maker". So if Adolf Scholze is indeed A.S. and AS in Triangle, he would have had to have made 6 different type of PABs during the war. This doesn't really make a whole lot of sense, especially when you think that he would have also had to be using 2 distinct type of maker marks. Why would that be?
TomIf it doesn't have a hinge and catch, I'm not interested......well, maybe a littleNew Book - The German Close Combat Clasp of World War II
[/SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]Available Now - tmdurante@gmail.com
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Hi Tom,Originally posted by Thomas Durante View Post
If that's the only reason, then that can be accounted for by the new "A.S. brand" perhaps. The postulate would run thus:
The A.S. hollow tombak and zinc versions have no parallel in the "AS in triangle" line so presumably only the parent company existed at that time. Then the new alliance is formed by Scholze with his investors/partners and a production site is set up with similar but different tooling and the "AS in triangle" logo is born. This site produces the minesweeper and the PAB and other "AS in triangle" marked products as well as the Schwerin clasp and the W&L black wound badge. Meanwhile the original A.S. site continues on to produce the zinc semi-hollow version. Over in the new site, the 1st pattern semi-hollow "AS in triangle" is very similar to the A.S. semi-hollow suggesting the same source for die production. This site over time produces its 3 close variants of the semi-hollow PAB (only 2 if you don't count the single example known of the 3rd pattern).
And there you have it! It's not that different from the old theory of 2 different makers since you have 2 sets of tooling at work; the only new thing is that Adolf Scholze is behind both products! Mind you, it's not even that much of a stretch to have them all produced at the same site. Since Scholze was always changing things up a lot, he could have evolved from the A.S. semi-hollowback to the "AS in triangle" semi-hollowback patterns 1 and 2, or had the tooling for both in the same building.
In the case of the minesweeper badge the evolution has several steps as well, which I will post as John requested.
---NormComment
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As John requested, here is the AS minesweeper timeline in my view. (My apologies to any whose posted images I borrowed for this illustration.)Originally posted by John Robinson View Post
First off is the unmarked tombak compared to the unmarked zinc.
Minesweepers have exceptionally intricate inner and outer borders due to the wreath and the water plume, and since different manufacturers use their own trimming tooling, no two manufacturers have identical cutout margins.
These badges show the same obverse die characteristics and identical trimming outlines indicating the same tooling; only the reverse die is different to accommodate the new crimped hardware technology.
This particular zinc example is important because unusually it shows cutouts around the eagle’s head identical to the tombak version, in contrast to most examples which left this area full to allow more space for the crimp on the reverse; thus it’s sort of a missing link to the later production.
You can also see how the zinc version introduced a die flaw -- characteristic divots in the eagle’s chest -- which I call the eagle’s “armpits”.Comment
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Next, is the unmarked zinc from the previous post with the cutout around the eagle’s head compared with more common version untrimmed around the eagle. Identical in every other respect. The finish on the badge on the right follows the typical “AS in triangle" practise of coating the whole zinc badge in a coppery layer first and then applying the silvering to the reverse and water feature and the gold finish to the wreath. The reverse of the badge on the right has lost much of its silvering.Comment
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Here is the unmarked badge from the previous post compared with the relatively uncommon unmarked “AS in triangle” with the 2nd pattern eagle. As discussed in another thread, the characteristic tooling marks on the reverse of both badges provided the elusive link between the badges with the 1st and 2nd pattern eagles, combined with identical obverse die features and finishing techniques outside of the eagle itself.Comment
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And finally you see the unmarked 2nd pattern eagle badge next to the classic marked “AS in triangle”. With the distinctive re-worked eagle and identical die characteristics this connection is obvious, but the unmarked version is thicker, intermediate in weight between the unmarked 1st pattern eagle badges and the marked 2nd pattern eagle badges.Comment
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So in summary the timeline for the "AS in triangle" (or Adolf Scholze as I suspect) minesweeper badge as I see it is:
1) unmarked tombak, wide pin/square catch
2) zinc unmarked, crimped hardware, 1st pattern eagle
3) zinc unmarked, crimped hardware, 2nd pattern eagle
3) zinc marked, crimped hardware, 2nd pattern eagle
These all share the same die characteristics and trimming outlines; the first zincers introduced a significant "armpit flaw" in the eagle's chest which was eliminated in the re-design to the 2nd pattern eagle before finally ending up with the classic marked "AS in triangle".
Of note, one often sees seasoned, individually scratched examples of the unmarked tombak and zinc 1st pattern badges, sometimes in groupings, but I can't recall seeing any of the 2nd pattern badges with provenance even though they seem to be more numerous. This leads me to suspect that more of the earlier badges were award pieces, and there may have been a lot of surplus 2nd pattern badges floating around at the end of the war.Last edited by Norm F; 08-13-2010, 05:33 PM.Comment
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Outstanding work Norm.
JohnComment
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