Minesweeper opinions wanted

[Lorenzo Brown]

@David R. Thank you for the additional photos. These are really very helpful, but unfortunately I think they do not bode well for the badge. I have compared the two badges below and thay appear to me to be the same. There are minor differences on the obverse, but I believe those could be attributable to the misstrike of the first badge.

Now, we have TWO uncommon zinc badges in near mint condition! As a statistical probability, this is NOT GOOD. Still would be good to see another with authentic wear...but at this point we have not yet seen it.

Mark makes good points abouts about the hardware. Looking at the first badge again, the hinge and pin do have a noticeable "machined' appearance, very geometric and not the kind of "hand fashioned" look that typifies badges. Also, I have been checking my files and have not yet seen one authentic period MS badge that has that type of hinge assembly. It may be out there, but it is not common.

However, most troubling to me is the side view of David's badge that shows NO SIGNS of shear marks. I just double checked all of my zink minesweepers and they all had them.

Regretably, I am now tending toward fake on both of these badges, but more information is always welcome..

[David R.]

Hi as I stated there are shear marks all the way around the badge and the zinc is starting to absorb the finish on the wreath. The shear marks are very fine and not coarse like on very late badges. I can't get a real good shot of the marks you can see them with a 5 power glass.

@David R. Thank you for the additional photos. These are really very helpful, but unfortunately I think they do not bode well for the badge. I have compared the two badges below and thay appear to me to be the same. There are minor differences on the obverse, but I believe those could be attributable to the misstrike of the first badge.

Now, we have TWO uncommon zinc badges in near mint condition! As a statistical probability, this is NOT GOOD. Still would be good to see another with authentic wear...but at this point we have not yet seen it.

Mark makes good points abouts about the hardware. Looking at the first badge again, the hinge and pin do have a noticeable "machined' appearance, very geometric and not the kind of "hand fashioned" look that typifies badges. Also, I have been checking my files and have not yet seen one authentic period MS badge that has that type of hinge assembly. It may be out there, but it is not common.

However, most troubling to me is the side view of David's badge that shows NO SIGNS of shear marks. I just double checked all of my zink minesweepers and they all had them.

Regretably, I am now tending toward fake on both of these badges, but more information is always welcome..

[Lorenzo Brown]

Hi David. Well, I still don't see what I would consider to be shear marks....sharp striations running vertically down the sides. Actually, I would expect to see them more clearly on a "minty" badge since it would have less wear and more of the original finish, such as your example. A "worn" and "handled " badge might tend to have fewer marks due to be being worn off and due to oxidation and deterioration of the surface of the badge from casual storage. However, yours appears to be very lightly handled and well-stored, and thus I would expect to see sharper shear marks.

However, "shear marks" is only one point that has been raised amongst several others, and is also something that I, personally, like to see. The presence or absence of them does not exclusivly validate or eliminate a badge...but I do like to see them. Others may have different criteria and opinions.

I think the badges are still open to more viewpoints and opinions. We still havent broached the subject of weight or dimensions. Nor have we seen good clear close-ups of the details. These are things that might be considered before making a final judgement.

[Hasse.M]

Hi everyone!

Ok now we got one more. Well im not in a rush for money and I really dont want to sell a FAKE. Thats one of my reasons why asking so much.

So to everyone that asked me for a price its not for offer. Sorry.
If this one turnsout to be original then I will offer it for a fair price.

But we are still sitting with a badge allready found in 2examples in a short time no? My guess there is more to come..

[skip]

Oh Oh!

bad news another minty example turning up, how long ago did you get this David?

I also can not see the shear marks on Davids badge which I also cosider a bad sign. However I see no issue with the hinge, surely this is the standard type hinge that we see on so many badges, especially the zinc navy series from Schwerin (Aux. Cr., Blockade Breaker, U-Boat etc), I´ve even seen such hinges on EKs.
Guys I´m sure these hinges were´nt hand made, I would have thought that they were machined in long pieces and then cut of to required length, or do you not agree?

Skip

[Philippe DB]

Hi Guys,

Just 3 more thoughts on these IMO genuine Minesweepers,

1. Little bubbles, looking like sand under the finish are perfectly acceptable on zink badges. It's what Frank would call the "cooked effect" and is commonly found on Bronze JFS IAB's and Bronze Schwerin U-boat clasps.

2. If I ever saw genuine wear on a pin than it is on the example posted by David. Worn badges with a finished pin will always show wear in the exact same spot as seen on Davids example. Upper bend part of the pin that sticks out most and rubs against the uniform.

3. The fact that both badges show a different reverse finish is also a good point. Untill now I didn't figure out why they did it but it's commonly seen of lot of KM badges.

KR
Philippe

[David R.]

Here is my first post to this thread
Just catching the end,But I just bought an exact copy of this badge from a member off of estand,and that member got it from Joeseph D.The gold finish is just a shade darker or just dirty? Mine has shear marks on the badge and pin.

Oh Oh!

bad news another minty example turning up, how long ago did you get this David?

I also can not see the shear marks on Davids badge which I also cosider a bad sign. However I see no issue with the hinge, surely this is the standard type hinge that we see on so many badges, especially the zinc navy series from Schwerin (Aux. Cr., Blockade Breaker, U-Boat etc), I´ve even seen such hinges on EKs.
Guys I´m sure these hinges were´nt hand made, I would have thought that they were machined in long pieces and then cut of to required length, or do you not agree?

Skip

[David R.]

Hi Philippe
Good eyes I never even saw the different color on the back,His is gold and mine is silver,And yes mine has been around longer, also I think they are early fine zinc(just after the change over from buntmedal) I have a luft.ground ass. badge that feels and looks the same way.

Hi Guys,

Just 3 more thoughts on these IMO genuine Minesweepers,

1. Little bubbles, looking like sand under the finish are perfectly acceptable on zink badges. It's what Frank would call the "cooked effect" and is commonly found on Bronze JFS IAB's and Bronze Schwerin U-boat clasps.

2. If I ever saw genuine wear on a pin than it is on the example posted by David. Worn badges with a finished pin will always show wear in the exact same spot as seen on Davids example. Upper bend part of the pin that sticks out most and rubs against the uniform.

3. The fact that both badges show a different reverse finish is also a good point. Untill know I didn't figure out why they did it but it's commonly seen of lot of KM badges.

KR
Philippe

[Lorenzo Brown]

..... However I see no issue with the hinge, surely this is the standard type hinge that we see on so many badges, especially the zinc navy series from Schwerin (Aux. Cr., Blockade Breaker, U-Boat etc), I´ve even seen such hinges on EKs.
Guys I´m sure these hinges were´nt hand made, I would have thought that they were machined in long pieces and then cut of to required length, or do you not agree?

Skip

I agree, they weren't handmade...just that it looks too smooth.
Regarding the hinge, I am referring to the specific design. Comparing to the Schwerin...it's close - but no cigar!

Also note again Mark's point about how the hinge tip doesn't meet the base. Looks like a couple of mm's gap. Could be a faker who wanted to make the hinge/pin set-up LOOK AUTHENTIC without taking time to ensure that it performs its function. I will grant that some authentic badges do the same thing, but MOST of them meet the base to provide tension...and this one does not. Certainly this is not PROOF that it is a fake, but IMO it adds one more suspicious point against it.

Can we find another legitimate hinge that looks just like this one?

[skip]

Hmmm, see what you mean about it being different, although this is´nt pretending to be a Schwerin, so the hinge does´nt have to be exactly the same.
Also right is that it does´nt reach the bottom, but as you say, there are other authentic badges around that also have this feature.
I´m not willing to damm it 100% but the strange points are mounting up.

Skip

[Lorenzo Brown]

I´m not willing to damm it 100% but the strange points are mounting up.

Skip

I agree with you.
Right now I am at about "5" on the scale...but tending downwards.
I like to be in, or close to, the Green zone before I buy or recommend a badge.

With the information we have, where would you guys put yourselves on this scale?

[skip]

Somewere between 6 and 7.
I was at 8 but the last couple of posts have knocked me down a little.

Skip

[David R.]

Hi here is the hinge on my badge,it does hit and it does have tension on the pin.

I agree, they weren't handmade...just that it looks too smooth.
Regarding the hinge, I am referring to the specific design. Comparing to the Schwerin...it's close - but no cigar!

Also note again Mark's point about how the hinge tip doesn't meet the base. Looks like a couple of mm's gap. Could be a faker who wanted to make the hinge/pin set-up LOOK AUTHENTIC without taking time to ensure that it performs its function. I will grant that some authentic badges do the same thing, but MOST of them meet the base to provide tension...and this one does not. Certainly this is not PROOF that it is a fake, but IMO it adds one more suspicious point against it.

Can we find another legitimate hinge that looks just like this one?

[Lorenzo Brown]

OK. I have just spent an hour scouring Kai Winkler and Helmut Weitze's websites and archives looking for your badges.( I will send you my bill...you can pay me via PayPal.) I found nothing that looked similar.....

....EXCEPT this "WH" pin marked badge. Looks like a possible match. Problem again is that this badge also looks minty, but it does have more authentic looking finish. Also, I am not real comfortable with this maker so I can't attest to it's authenticity.

PS...only kidding about the bill!
FRONT

[Lorenzo Brown]

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