submarine cloth badge

[willone242]

Hi - I was hoping that you might be able to help me out. Got offerd this item. What do you gents think about it. As far as I can tell, it looks real, but I am a newbie to this so I dont trust myself enough.

William Forsth (Sweden)

[willone242]

back side of same...

[werewolf07]

looks ok to me !

[Frank Heukemes]

These are highly controversial. I would not buy one of those.

[Jody]

Cloth U-boat

These are highly controversial. I would not buy one of those.

Hello,
I agree with Frank. When I was a kid in the early 70's you could buy these as fakes from Unique Imports (for under $5) and I even had one myself and sewed it on my windbreaker.

My question is when did these cloth BEVO type badges start becoming original in the eyes of collectors?

If you want an original cloth U-boat badge stick to this type. http://www.therupturedduck.com/WebPa...dals/m281a.htm

Regards,
Jody

[willone242]

thanks.....

Thanks for your feedback, but as I said before, I am a newbie on this (set on geting a grat collection u-boot items) but "http://www.german-historica.de/" got one for sale, and he sems to have a good rep.

W

[John R.]

Hello,
I agree with Frank. When I was a kid in the early 70's you could buy these as fakes from Unique Imports (for under $5) and I even had one myself and sewed it on my windbreaker.

My question is when did these cloth BEVO type badges start becoming original in the eyes of collectors?

If you want an original cloth U-boat badge stick to this type. http://www.therupturedduck.com/WebPa...dals/m281a.htm

Regards,
Jody

Jody,

Are you sure Huss' cloth badge is not authentic, in other words, is the weave on the reverse truly the same as the ones you handled in the 70s?

I question this since the thread type and weave is very similar to the cellon (synthetic cotton) thread/weave of the kriegsmarine cap tallies (muetzenbands) used to replace the cotton thread (baumwolle) later in the war.

Image attached of the reverse of a wartime cellon cap tally.

Before I would say this is not authentic, I would like to see the reverse of the 70s types you are referring to. I know this is impossible since you no longer have it, so I guess we are depending on your memory of the reverse stitching at this point.

Another avenue might be to see if all of these patch types are of the type at the top of the thread, but for me right now, it is similar to the cellon weave that I know is authentic.

I do not own one of these patch type insignia, so I have no agenda here except to try to fully investigate this type of patch. I must admit, I have seen a few of these, none in hand, but that does not mean the style itself, perhaps as represented by the one above, is not authentic and that cheap reproductions were made after the war.

To me, the stitching is too close to cellon in this example to fake, since no fakes of cap tallies using the cellon weave has been produced. That said, without the patch in hand (or asking the seller), I am not sure what the material is in the thread, this is what makes cellon hard to identify from an image, but in hand it is clear. However, the weave is cellon, very distinct from cotton or gold wire.

The important point I am trying to make is not whether it is gold wire, cotton or cellon though, it is the stitch style and this style was used in the war, but not in kriegsmarine fakes after the war--with only one exception to my knowledge, the Scharnhorst cap tally produced in England for legitimate reproduction sale and sold by unscrupulous individuals for years as the real thing. Still not exactly the same, but close. Fortunately, Scharnhorst has not been produced in quite a while.

Another question is if any photos exist of this patch used on a uniform?

John

[Jeff V]

John makes some interesting points here. I used to have one of these but I got rid of it because I like to stick with "textbook"(kind of a falsehood since most textbooks are riddled with fakes) pieces. I will say I blacklight tested it and burned the threads and everything checked out good. No modern synthetics. best wishes,
jeff

[Jody]

Cloth U-boat Badge

Hi John,
All I know is that in the 70's they were sold as reproductions. They ran around $4.95 or so.

In the late 80's early 90's I started seeing them being sold as real. I personally don't trust them. I guess it is like the Heer Balloon badge, or Luftwaffe Panzer badge. Not for my collection.

Regards,
Jody

[tgn]

Jody is correct. There is no controversy on these - they are fake. End of story...Tom

[FW 200]

Is there a thread or site where cap tally material and construction can be researched? I have several, one with cotton thread, several with dark, fine, aged copper(coated?)thread, and several with yellow coated thread like the type shown in your post. The copper-looking ones are on silk, the gold colored ones are on a synthetic rayon-like ribbon. Thanks! Charlie

[willone242]

it seems that this is a subject that might have to be looked into more deeply. Another one of my listed dealars, got a few of his catalouges "Galerie d´Histoire - André Hüsken" ave got one aswell. He list several versions of it. Here is a page from an older catalouge.

Will

[rhudspith]

John,

I have seen one of these in hand, it looked very convincing in that it seemed to be well made. It was a padded version and I am sure from memory that the thread was gold wire, not cellon

[John R.]

Is there a thread or site where cap tally material and construction can be researched? I have several, one with cotton thread, several with dark, fine, aged copper(coated?)thread, and several with yellow coated thread like the type shown in your post. The copper-looking ones are on silk, the gold colored ones are on a synthetic rayon-like ribbon. Thanks! Charlie

I am afraid there is not. The area of cap tallies, like all other cloth areas of this hobby, requires a lot of time and experience to tell the reproductions from the fakes apart. Most post war tallies are fairly easy to spot however if you know what to look for, except the above mentioned Scharnhorst. You must also remember this type of tally was used by the Germans to this date, so there is a confusing multitude of types out there going back 150 years at least.


If you want, you can send me a PM with your email address and I will respond with mine via email. Then you can send me images of the tallies front and back and I can take a look at them and we can discuss it a bit.

Truthfully, my advice is to stay away from these unless willing to put in a lot of study, intentionally buy some of the cheap fakes that go on ebay for under 10 bucks, buy some of the cheap real ones, mainly in Germany, since they never show up in US ebay, and start studying them carefully.

When that is done you might have just enough information to get started. I love this hobby, but it has taken me years and a couple trips to Germany to talk to the real experts there to finally understand them properly.

One book is crucial to getting started: "Die Mutzenbander der Deutschen Reichmarine und der Marine des III. Reiches 1920 1945" by Horst Rivier. It comes up sooner or later for around 50 bucks on German ebay.

Also remember, even this fine book has some serious mistakes, but it is better than any other book out there today, even some noted reference books on insignia of the Kriegsmarine are packed with reproduction tallies. Also of note, there were no tallies for Bismark and Tirpitz, usually a clue when you see one for sale!!!!! Their crews only had the "kriegsmarine" tally as is clear in the photos from the commissioning day ceremonies.

Again, send me a PM if you wish to go further into this.

John

[John R.]

John,

I have seen one of these in hand, it looked very convincing in that it seemd to be weel made. It was a padded version and I am sure from memory that the thread was gold wire, not cellon

Rob,

I agree the patch looks like gold wire, just the stitching is the later war cellon style. The gold wire was still used throughout the war on the "kriegsmarine" tallies but were private purchase. The issue tally was first cotton, then cellon. I know you know this already, just stating it for others reading this thread.

It just looks like period gold wire with cellon style loops and extensions on this badge patch to me.

John