U boat - Schwerin - Torpedoed?

[Skipper Greenwade]

Rich,

Don't feel too bad...I had a bad one for years, too, until it hit a depth charge in this thread:

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...=257576&page=2

Got a good one from Detlev a couple of weeks later, though:

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=270366

Best,
Skip

[Tom Yanacek]

This looks to me like the famous "no propeller" Schwering fake that Manions has been selling for years.Greg

I agree. I have seen many of these Schwerin fakes being sold through Manion's Auction House, along with those Frank & Reif U-boat fakes. At one time they were an excellent source for original items, but now they allow a massive flood of fakes in their auctions. At present, they have nine Kriegmarine badges up for auction and only three of them are original.

Best regards,
Tom

[colt45s]

why do they make- Schwering Berlin going downhill, can't they get it straight?

[andrewt]

I agree. I have seen many of these Schwerin fakes being sold through Manion's Auction House, along with those Frank & Reif U-boat fakes. At one time they were an excellent source for original items, but now they allow a massive flood of fakes in their auctions. At present, they have nine Kriegmarine badges up for auction and only three of them are original.

Best regards,
Tom

Tom,

Vonn has been using Tucker's book as reference on all of these, paying special attention to the makers marks on the Schwerin examples, and believes them to be original. Of course the winning bidder will be able to make the final decision, when he is actually holding it in his hand, and return it if he feels our assessment is incorrect.

Here is an example of a Schwerin example recently rejected due to the eagle's head and the "68"...

We know we have our work cut out for us in weeding through the fakes (the repro section is chock full), and always welcome experienced opinion. Are there additional details you could share? We know the water on the minesweeper example is different, but Vonn attributes it to a potential past polish job, and mentioned it in the description.

I am going to be "out of pocket" for a few days picking up a collection, and not sure how much time I will have to check back here. If you (or anyone) don't mind giving specific assistance, I will be checking e-mail off and on and would welcome learning more.

Also, if someone interested in bidding has a question they are always welcome to give us a call and speak with the description department.

Andrew
alturner@manions.com

[Tom Yanacek]

Hello Andrew,

Thanks for responding. I miss the days of the past, when the auction house was one of the best sources of original militaria in the USA. I bought many items in the late 70s and early 80s and was pleased with most transactions. At one time, the auction house had a first-rate reputation and was well-respected by most collectors. To say now that that reputation has slipped is an understatement. It seems to me like the auction house has become a place for people (via consignment) to anonymously sell off their fakes at the expense of your company's reputation. You need to get a very knowledgeable staff to start screening these items more closely if you want the reputation to improve. Of course, offering return privileges is a good thing, but many of the customers (especially those new to the hobby) are trusting your expertise. By the time they learn the item is fake, it is usually too late for returns. People end up getting stuck with crap, new collectors get discouraged and quit the hobby, and the company's reputation continues to dwindle. In the end , you are cutting your own throat.
Since you did ask for some specifics, I will give you my opinion of all the lots that you currently have up in the Kriegsmarine badge section:
Lot# 5947753- looks to be an original second-pattern E-boat Badge by Schwerin.
Lot# 5948775- looks to be an original Auxiliary Cruiser Badge by Rudolf Souval.
Lot# 5947748- looks to be an original Auxiliary Cruiser Badge by Schwerin.
Lot# 5944037- is a fake of a Schwerin Auxiliary Cruiser Badge. (obverse detail, maker markings, hardware components, and finish all wrong)
Lot# 5948774- is a well-known S.H.u.Co. Coastal Artillery fake that has been around since the mid 90s. (this fake is not even based on an original... it is made of a modern alloy and the pin on these will bend like butter)
Lot# 5948772- is a well-known fake of a Friedrich Orth Destroyer Badge. (this fake surfaced about the same time as the fake S.H.u.Co. Coastal Artillery Badge... also made of a modern alloy, hardware incorrect for Friedrich Orth, soft horizontal pin bends like butter, obverse detail incorrect and missing superstructure hatchway and anchor stem)
Lot# 5948796- well-known fake of an R.S.&S. High Seas Fleet Badge. (also surfaced about the same time as the fake S.H.u.Co. Coastal Artillery Badge and the fake f.o. Destroyer Badge... probably originated from the same source as the other two... modern alloy, soft pin that bends like butter, incorrect hardware for R.S.&S., incorrect detail on the obverse)
Lot# 5948786- well-known fake of the Narvik Shield. (I believe this fake originated in Austria and it has fooled many collectors- myself included)
Lot# 5948780- very convincing fake of a Schwerin Minesweeper Badge. (but the obverse detail is off and the maker markings are not correct... the alignment is too perfect)

Best regards,
Tom

[andrewt]

Thanks, Tom.

I will pass the info along to Vonn and he will certainly take it into account.

When you speak of collecting TR material in the 70s and 80s, you must admit it was an entirely different time to be in the hobby and the amount of, and quality of, fakes was no where near where it is today. In fact, some of the very same describers currently working at Manion's are the exact same who were describing and authenticating in the 70s and 80s. Like myself, they came back to work for the company after, how should I put it? We'll say...the fall of the old regime.

Trust that at the new Manion's we will always do our best to screen the MASSIVE amount of material we receive. Our German describers and consultants possess extensive knowledge of the material, but that knowledge is stronger in some areas than others - this is why we utilize a vast assortment of reference books and offer a very liberal return policy - and appreciate opinion like yours.

Also, remember Manion's is much much more than TR material. We will ALWAYS offer a marketplace to buy and sell these items, but in moving forward we have found the interest in US and militaria from other countries is 100X more popular than it was in decades passed and we have very successfully expanded our endeavors in that direction.

Thanks again for your helpful input and positive approach.

Andrew

PS - We're always taking resumes for German describers!

[Tom Yanacek]

Hello Andrew,

Thanks again for responding. Yes! Definitely many more fakes today than in the 70s and 80s. However, I don't think it's any more of a minefield today than it was years ago. I say this because even though there are many more high-quality fakes around today, there is also much more quality reference material available now than ever before. Also, the internet has been extremely helpful in making the hobby less of a minefield. These collector forums are such a tremendous asset to collectors. There is a wealth of information being shared from collectors around the world. Never before has so much knowledge and expertise become so easily accessible to all. Most of these high-tech, quality fakes of today still fall short of the originals.
It is important that if you really want to keep the fakes out of the auction, that you take full advantage of the information that is available on the internet. It is imperative that the people screening the auction items keep educating themselves and staying abreast of the latest fakes. If the employees that screen the items today were also doing it years ago, and they are still screening items by the old standards, then that might be where the problem lies. I really feel that it is not an impossible task to keep most of the crap out of the auction. The items that I said were fake are well-known fakes to most serious collectors. Seriously, there is no speculation on my part about those particular items. The pictures alone are more than enough and no in-hand examination is required to be certain. (But please don't take my word alone on that.) What's bad about these items is that they will fool new collectors. The hobby has no future if young collectors spend hard-earned money on junk, get frustrated, and quit the hobby. When we are old and gray and want to sell our collections, who will buy them if all the young people have been scared away.
I can also understand why your business has increased in other areas. Because of the high price of Third Reich collectibles (and the large amount of fakes that exist), many collectors are pursuing less-expensive and safer avenues of militaria.
I sincerely hope that in the future the auction house will do a more careful job of screening consignment items. I still buy an item on occasion, but I would gladly become a frequent customer again if things improve. And thank you also for mentioning about the company always looking for German describers. Sounds interesting!

Best regards,
Tom

PS: I forgot to mention before that your auction screener did good to keep that first pattern Schwerin E-boat out of the auction. (The one you pictured in post #19.) That one is definitely fake as you say.