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    #46
    Hi Mark,

    From what I've seen, I don't think Schwerin were 100% consistent in the way they applied their finishes. On the example I've imaged above, it looks like the dark grey "finish" (possibly chemical alteration) is applied directly over the tombak (or over a VERY thin silver plate). On other badges I own, I get the impression that there was a thick silver coloured "plate" applied before the dark grey "finish", such that lightly worn points look silver but heavily worn points show tombak. I'd suggest Edgar's example is one that had a thick silver underplate. On Edgar's badge, there is plenty of tombak (red patinaed though, not a fresh yellow/brass colour) showing through the silver finish.

    I've seen Schwerin badges cleaned by collector's who thought the dark grey finish was a patina! At least whoever cleaned this one didn't use steel wool (probably heavily buffed it).

    Regards
    Mike K

    PS: as far as I know, the finish was not actually black - at least 60 years later it's not!
    Regards
    Mike

    Evaluate the item, not the story and not the seller's reputation!

    If you PM/contact me without the courtesy of using your first name, please don't be offended if I politely ignore you!

    Comment

      #47
      Thanks all

      I am learning a lot with your help. Still waiting for more answers and knowledge.

      I hope my money did not go to the toilet with this badge (something is telling me it did not, however I am looking forward to read your comments). Now the badge has scored one point to its side (Mike's).

      Edgar

      Comment

        #48
        Hi Mike,

        Here is what I thought the process for a Schwerin KM badge was.

        1) Stamp the badge
        2) Coat the entire badge (anodise?) with chemical blacking
        3) Paint the pertinent parts silver
        4) Paint the pertinent parts (wreath) gold

        To me, this explains why the entire rear of the badge is black. It explains why we see silver and gold 'runs' on the rear of the wreath.

        On your badge #29, there is beautiful wear to the highlights of the ship. Not heavy wear, very minor in fact. All I see is Tomback. Can't see any silver underplating. On Edgar's badge #34 & #35, all I see is silver. Not a trace of gold.... no runs on the rear, no gold even in the recesses of the front details of the battleship. I can't believe that the gold was polished off that perfectly, so as to remove all traces of the gold and leave no visable scratch/ buffing marks. I'm not convinced yet. If you can post an image of a KM Schwerin that shows the silver beneath the gold, then I might see what you are referring to.

        Good night all,
        Mark
        "You can check out any time you like ..... But you can never leave....."

        Comment

          #49
          Originally posted by mmiller
          Hi Mike,

          Here is what I thought the process for a Schwerin KM badge was.

          1) Stamp the badge
          2) Coat the entire badge (anodise?) with chemical blacking
          3) Paint the pertinent parts silver
          4) Paint the pertinent parts (wreath) gold

          To me, this explains why the entire rear of the badge is black. It explains why we see silver and gold 'runs' on the rear of the wreath.

          On your badge #29, there is beautiful wear to the highlights of the ship. Not heavy wear, very minor in fact. All I see is Tomback. Can't see any silver underplating. On Edgar's badge #34 & #35, all I see is silver. Not a trace of gold.... no runs on the rear, no gold even in the recesses of the front details of the battleship. I can't believe that the gold was polished off that perfectly, so as to remove all traces of the gold and leave no visable scratch/ buffing marks. I'm not convinced yet. If you can post an image of a KM Schwerin that shows the silver beneath the gold, then I might see what you are referring to.

          Good night all,
          Mark
          Hi Mark,

          First up, trust me, the badge I owned was quite worn. Not as bad as Edgar's, but definitely quite worn. I'm attaching an annotated image of my example. Things to note are the original dark grey finish at 1), moderately high points which have been worn (or are wearing) to a true silver colour at 2) and high points which have been worn to tombak at 3). Note that 4) outlines one of the few locations which retains the fire-gilt finish on this badge - everything else is bare tombak. Edgar's example actually retains more fire-gilt than my ex-example! It's one of the problems in judging the degree of remaining finish from images - especially when the owner of a badge can not tell the difference between tombak basemetal and a fire-gilt finish!

          My reply above is probably not as clear as I could have made it. I used the term "plate" loosely when "painted" or "otherwise applied" may have been better terms. Note also that I only meant to refer to the silver "plate" in direct association with the dark grey - nothing to do with the gilding. I agree 100% that you will probably never find a tombak Schwerin KM badge with silver plate under the fire-gilt.

          I'm attaching an annotated image (next post) of the reverse of my example. It had the dark grey finish, but on the edges you can see traces of fire gilding at 1). Note that irregularities such as 2) are imo where the gilt finish has splashed/painted on the reverse and has worn away with time. Edgar's badge has plenty of these patches on the reverse of his example. At points 3) on my example you can see where the dark grey has been naturally worn/polished to a silver - the same goes for the hinge block, pin and catch, which would also have originally had the dark grey finish but are now more of a shiny silver.

          Regarding the Scwerin finishing process, I have slightly different views.

          1) Badge produced and (for at least the HSF, Destroyer, Coastal Artillery, Minesweeper 1s Pattern E-boat) the hinge/pin/catch assembly were added.
          2) the part I am not 100% sure on and I'll restrict my comments to the HSF badge - a silver finish was "applied" to the reverse and to the ship on the obverse. It may or may not have been a true plating applied to the entire badge (see 5) below).
          3) this silver plate was then chemically altered to produce the matt dark grey effect
          4a) the fire-gilt was painted onto the obverse of the wreath, commonly leaving splash/brush marks on the reverse edges of the wreath.
          4b) for badges which had frosted silver in their obverse design (eg Minesweeper, 1st pattern E-boat, Blockade Breaker), a silver paint was also applied - and commonly splashed onto the reverse. Note that I've yet to see a splash of silver paint on the reverse of a eg a tombak HSF, Destroyer or Coastal Artillery Badge - only fire-gilt.
          5) IF the badge was entirely silver plated (and chemically altered), the further appplication/baking of the fire-gilding has caused another chemical reaction, forming a new product such that the earlier applied silver/dark grey finish has been totally absorbed. Evidence for this is found on the reverse of Schwerin badges whereby dark grey areas subjected to splashes of the fire-gilt wear away to BARE basemetal - such as at 2) on the reverse image - NOT a silver plate.

          Based on the above evaluation, a very possible alternate explanation for Edgar's shiny silver finish is that the chemical reaction to form the matt dark grey finish was simply omitted from the finishing process for this badge.

          I hope this makes some sense.

          Regards
          Mike K
          Attached Files
          Regards
          Mike

          Evaluate the item, not the story and not the seller's reputation!

          If you PM/contact me without the courtesy of using your first name, please don't be offended if I politely ignore you!

          Comment

            #50
            Annotated reverse...
            Attached Files
            Regards
            Mike

            Evaluate the item, not the story and not the seller's reputation!

            If you PM/contact me without the courtesy of using your first name, please don't be offended if I politely ignore you!

            Comment

              #51
              Interesting discussion and although I know Mike has done an aweful lot of investigation into these, I was always under the impression that the manufacturing ran like this:

              1. Stamp the badge
              2. Apply hinge/hook
              3. Whole badge is silver plated
              4. Wreath is fire guilded (pinsel vergoldet)
              5. Dark chemical patina is applied to reverse and ship

              I have a minty HSF were you can see the dark grey slopping onto the wreath. Yuri also posted such an example a couple of years back.
              I have seen Tombac badges with not a trace of grey or gold left on them and they were completly silver with tombac poking through on the high spots.

              Although it could be that they just had an elaborate masking off process and missed some bits of the grey when doing the gold.

              Just some thoughts.

              Skip
              Last edited by skip; 10-24-2005, 06:12 AM.
              LOOKING FOR ALL ITEMS CONNECTED TO HERBERT SCHOB.

              Comment

                #52
                Holly 'High Seas Fleetbadge' Batman,

                Mike, before I reply with comments, I must compliment you! Pretty damn impressive. I'll reply here, later. I'll just Edit this post.

                Mark


                OK, Mike & Skip, A break in work, so I'll reply!

                1) We have differing opinions on the silver 'primer-coat'. Was it applied to the entire badge or just the areas to be chemically darkened?

                2) When did the chemical darkening occur, before or after the fire-gilting process?


                I would think that the silver 'primer-coat' would be applied to the entire badge. It would be much more efficient to either spray or wash the entire badge with paint, than to try to apply it just to the area to be oxydized. Think about it, applying the silver with a brush on the entire reverse of the wreath. Wouldn't the same effect occur. but in reverse, with the silver primer-coat dripping around the side of the badge onto the obverse wreath? Seems much more simple to just prime the whole badge. Not so labor intensive.

                Next, I think the blackening took place. If we are assuming that the entire badge was not blackened, and only the ship and reverse, the chemical solution (which was most likely a very thin solution) was brushed on the reverse and the ship. This solution would have to be neatly applied to ONLY the primed silver areas, if we are of the opinion that only a portion of the badge was silver coated. My experience with acids and oxydizing agents is that they are tinner than water. That liquid is going to be hard to control on a brush, and on a reletively smooth surface. The oxydizing process would be simpler if the entire badge was silvered. If fact, to take it a step farther, it would yet be easiest to completely silver coat the badge and then oxydize the whole thing. Just spray the silver and when it dries, dip the entire badge. (I'm probably leaving myself open on that one. And I'm not going to scratch my HSF Badge to find out if I'm right or wrong.)

                Lastly, the gold paint, and silver 'top coat' goes on by brush, as required. I agree Mike, that is why we see the gold and silver runs. I disagee Skip, with your number 4 & 5. I think the process was inverse. If the 'black' went on last, we would see black 'runs' and drips, not gold & silver.

                I am not disputing the silver-primer theory, I just don't understand the reason why. Unless... Tombak may not oxydize to black, because of the high copper content. The acid may make Tombak turn to some other weird color other than black! Put some silver primer on there and the acid has a perfect light colored 'slate' to let the oxydizer do its thing. Go Black!

                I gotta go back to work,
                Mark
                Last edited by mmiller; 10-24-2005, 12:40 PM.
                "You can check out any time you like ..... But you can never leave....."

                Comment

                  #53
                  Agree with mike, the silver plate was only added to areas which were to have the dark oxidised siler finish
                  Regards, Rob
                  Collecting Inerests Awards / Badges and Kriegsmarine

                  Comment

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