I have just seen a pab (looks like a zimmenmann) but i have never see such a needle on a normal pab.
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Hi X !
Looks good to me . The "wide" pin variant . I have one of these in my Collection .
Jan ArneComment
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I think the pin is brokenComment
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This is a key badge and another proof (the third hard evidence element) for the maker of these being Steinhauer & Lück and NOT Zimmermann. What you see is one of two Steinhauer & Lück variant Iron Cross First Class hinge/pins. Exactly the one, even the length is the same as the EK one. Steinhauer & Lück also used their EK-style CATCH on some of their GABs (which were wrongly attributed to Juncker).
You might also want to notice that ZIMMERMANN's EK pin is very different from the one used on this PAB.Cheers, Frank
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Here it is (Bill Garvy collection):Cheers, Frank
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Frank, I have a KVK w/o swords #4 (Buntmetal) that looks to match up to these pin/hinge arrangements,just for your information. RonOriginally posted by Frank HeukemesComment
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Yes, Ron, you are of course right, when the S&L KVKs do not have the cast in hinge and catch, they also have this EK style setup. There are even some zinc ones with that setup. Same thing.Cheers, Frank
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Dear Frank,
I already had on of these set-up variant's in my files but never made the link with what you already told me.
As far as I'm concerned this indeed is the missing link that proofs your point and I suggest from now on we stop using the SC Zimmermann name for these PAB's and correcty refer to them as S&L PAB's
I have no idea why they used this EK hardware but in the evolution it should be placed after the classic set-up we know. Not only the reverse dieflaw proofs that these are later badges but also the visible guidelines from the earlier set-up. Not visible on the pics posted above (the heavy file marks on the upper and lower part of the badge might indicate that they were removed) but still very visible on this example. (Jan don't now if this is your badge but I hope you don't mind me using this pic).
Also notice the different catch compared with the example posted above.
KR
PhilippeComment
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GREAT another PAB to put on my needed list...Comment
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good work yet again guys...this silver badge is mine that Philippe posted, if other pics needed just say the word...the bronze example pictured above is quite nice ....
so....where does that live things...zimmemrmann did not make a PAB....?
the supposed juncker badge is??
and the zimmermann style with the die flaw to the reverse fits where?
i guess i need a summation
thanks
mike
http://tankbadges.homestead.com
Originally posted by Philippe DBComment
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Hi Mike,
Should have known by the blue background that it was yours sorry
Mike we know only of one Zimmermann marked FZZS PAB, the semi hollow one of a kind "Wernstein" design PAB in Tom's collection, remember?
The former Zimmermann with die flaw in fact is a later S&L PAB.
As for the so called Juncker: untill now we only ever saw one marked example and that's the "Assmann" marked badge in Albert's collection. So who knows, the so called Juncker might well be a second pattern Assmann die, made to produce solid badges. Only thingking out loud here but I remember that some yeas ago you yourself wrote me a PM to talk about the similarities in design between the SC Juncker and the Assmann PAB's, Remember
KR
PhilippeComment
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Just looking at 'sc' Porsche and Assmann, grass area very similiar and gun barrel very close, also Frank has documentation from war that Junckers first PAB's were nickle silver(only 3 silver Wursters in nickle silver we know of, whole bunch of 'sc' Porsches). It seems then 'sc' Porsche must be a Junckers-according to written proof during the war...reverse set up doesn't match Junckers though, just throwing that into the mix!...Comment
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Philippe
i remember the conversation
...i think i still have the PM here somewhere...
so besides the very unique zimmerman we have found from Tom (obviously this means they made a PAB at some point of some style),,,,,and the A marked Juncker...does this mean we take off the table all the Junckers and Zimmemanns?...if that is the case what about the so called S&L varient with the crimped hinge and catch...which i believe came with a marked packet at some point?...where does that fit in?
sorry for the questions but i am trying to get a handle on this...i know there has been much discussionover ht elast year or so but it looks like we are getting prepared to rename a bunch of heretofore "givens".....just think we should stay on the same page....
are we prepared to say the unmarked porcshes are junclker definitively?
mike
i like the second pattern die for the solid badges theory for Assmann...it always bothered me about them not producing the latter varients....
Originally posted by Philippe DBHi Mike,
Should have known by the blue background that it was yours sorry
Mike we know only of one Zimmermann marked FZZS PAB, the semi hollow one of a kind "Wernstein" design PAB in Tom's collection, remember?
The former Zimmermann with die flaw in fact is a later S&L PAB.
As for the so called Juncker: untill now we only ever saw one marked example and that's the "Assmann" marked badge in Albert's collection. So who knows, the so called Juncker might well be a second pattern Assmann die, made to produce solid badges. Only thingking out loud here but I remember that some yeas ago you yourself wrote me a PM to talk about the similarities in design between the SC Juncker and the Assmann PAB's, Remember
KR
PhilippeComment
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Hi Mike
I believe the PAB and S&L marked packet isnt regarded as belonging together-Because no real proof that that packet really belongs to that badge-If example is from J Cross then I'm firm on the belief....Comment
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