PAB help please

[Tom Yanacek]

Mike we know only of one Zimmermann marked FZZS PAB, the semi hollow one of a kind "Wernstein" design PAB in Tom's collection, remember?
Philippe

Hello to all,
And here it is, back by popular demand, the one and only (so far anways) maker marked Panzer Assault Badge by Fritz Zimmermann. $35. from Ron Manion, ca. 1982. Really guys, if this ain't real, I will put ketchup on it and eat it. I am really lucky to own this one. I plan on having it placed in my coffin as my ticket to medal heaven. That is, unless I get a really good trade for it before my time is due.
Best regards! Tom
PS: If anyone out there has one of these, please post some pictures. There has to be more of these somewhere.

[Tom Yanacek]

reverse

[Tom Yanacek]

maker mark

[Tom Yanacek]

reverse angle
BTW: At this past Show of Shows, I brought this badge along and showed it to alot of dealers and collectors. No one I showed it to ever saw one like this, except for one guy who was walking the show. He looked to be about 50, and he said that he owned one just like this years ago but no longer had it.

[Philippe DB]

Morning guys,


What I would like to suggest is that we definitely start using Steinhauer & Luck when refering to all the "SC Zimmermann" variant's.

What we formerly refered to as the S&L PAB and in the absence of any link to a maker could best be refered to as the "Oval Crimp PAB". The crimping on these badges is an absolute unique feature (also found on IAB's from the same unknown maker) so everybody would know what we are talking about.

As to the Porsche and the so called Juncker I'm not really sure what to do. As Jeff mentioned based upon written evidence the most logical maker for the Porsche would be Junckers but we don't have any hard evidence. Same thing for the "So called Juncker". Is one marked example sufficient to call it the second pattern Assmann? If tomorrow we would find two more PAB's marked in exactly the same way as Albert's badge I wouldn't hessitate but at this moment I'm just not sure.

Maybe we should start a poll to see if the following is acceptable for everybody

SC Zimmermann = S&L
SC S&L = Oval crimp PAB
SC Porsche = Junckers
SC Junckers = second pattern (or solid) Assmann

All opinions welcome

KR
Philippe

[Frank Heukemes]

Hi guys,

I just wanted to mention that this EK style pin by S&L is not the only proof I have for the SC Zimmermann PABs being S&L:

1) complicated to show in a few pics and hard to describe with just words, but will be in my GAB book. Proof for the S&L GAB and PAB by cross-comparison of different variant setups with a "o" (Steinhauer & Lück mark) marked first pattern e-boat setup.

2) the very unique S&L EK catch used on a hollow GAB. That GAB and the massive one corresponding with it are of the SC Juncker type. Now there is proof that they are S&L. This logic line leads again to the PABs in question being S&L.

3) that S&L EK pin in this thread on a SC Zimmermann PAB leads to S&L as well.

4) An renowned collector just contacted me yesterday that he had a vet bringback from a US vet who got a handful of badges directly from S&L at war`s end. He sent me a pic of the GAB. Needless to say, it is the design I now call S&L and which was called Juncker so far.

For me, this means:

SC Juncker GAB = S&L
SC Zimmermann PAB = S&L

These two I am sure about. If the SC Porsche is a Juncker is a good question and it might indeed be the case, but there is no proof yet.
It also is not clear yet what the SC Juncker PAB is.

Cheers,

Frank

[Frank Heukemes]

Another thing to ponder over: Is it possible that FZS (Zimmermann) produced that many IABs and only a few PABs? Yes, it is. Just look at the enormous output of PABs (and GABs) Rudolf Karneth had and how few air guner badges he produced. Indeed so few that many have not heard about them.
Or look at the quantity of JFS IABs versus the one of JFS para badges.

[Tom Yanacek]

Just look at the enormous output of PABs (and GABs) Rudolf Karneth had and how few air guner badges he produced. Indeed so few that many have not heard about them.
Or look at the quantity of JFS IABs versus the one of JFS para badges.

Hello Frank,
Wow! R.K. Air Gunner, and a JFS Paratrooper? I never heard of either of these before. Must be extremely rare.
Best regards! Tom

[Indy]

Hi guys

That's so complex. How about find some old workers from FZS and Junker, and ask them which kind of PAB they have ever made.

regards

Indy

[Philippe DB]

Hi guys

That's so complex. How about find some old workers from FZS and Junker, and ask them which kind of PAB they have ever made.

regards

Indy

Don't bother Indy, my time machine is as good as ready just need a volunteer for the first test run, date is already set on Oct. 1940, region Berlin SW 68

KR
Philippe

[Indy]

hey Philippe

Wait! let me finish my last final exam tonight. Let's visit Mr. Junker and his workers. Damn...my German sucks, can they understand English?

anyway..gogogogo

[Frank Heukemes]

That's so complex. How about find some old workers from FZS and Junker, and ask them which kind of PAB they have ever made.

Without going through these complex learning processes we just might never know. What you suggest sounds easy but is almost impossible to accomplish. Whenever I talked to somebody who was actually there, they did not remember such details which are only important for us. And even if they would pick "their" GAB from a list of maybe 5 possibilities, could I ever be sure that person remembered it right 60 years later? Or is he just trying to be helpful and THINKS he knows the right answer.
I will tell you a good example. My father is still working as an archeologist and museum curator with his 81 years, which is detail work. He always had a great eye for detail. He is still very bright and his mind is as alive as ever. He was a Panzergrenadier officer during the war, had e.g. a PAB. He was suprised to see a numbered PAB in my collection: " I did not know these existed! I have never seen one." Now did he ever see one and forgot? A badge connected with a time he tried so hard to forget for 60 years? Another question from a friend of mine to him was: "Where was the Windhund logo placed on your halftrack, I would like to build an accurate model of it" He did not even remember that there were Windhund logos applied, let alone where it was on "his" halftrack. These things like "was it this eagle here or this one with one feather more" were of little interest.

On the other hand, we have facts, we can observe, draw conclusions, collect little puzzle pieces of truth. I have collected 4 for the S&L badges and they do satisfy me, as they all fall in place and do not contradict each other. Some former theories, as good as they were at their time, just did not hold up logically as soon as you tried to cross-reference badges among say IAB, GAB and PAB. Add to that the vet bringback which also produces the same badge I had already enough proof for and you have a winner. Well, certainly more than one PAB found in some marked packet, which could have been put in there by any of the 30 people that handled it since the end of the war.

What sounds so complex here is easy to comprehend once you see pictures and follow the line of thought.

[Indy]

ya...you are right Frank

So, that means.. to ask a worker may not helpful to us. That's sad.

regards

Indy

[Philippe DB]

Oh so true, what's important for us in our never ending search to make the puzzle pieces fall in to place, only by examining the pieces we handle, was of no importance what so ever to the people who received these badges.

Only recently 36 panzerveterans (aged 80 to 86) of the 5 PZ Regt were faced with the cut-out grass PAB. Although we know for sure that even in that regiment grass areas where cut-out, not one of the old guys had any recollection in relation to these badges


KR
Philippe

[VonLuger]

Question for Frank..

Help me understand you have linked a pin/hinge/catch with a variety of badges-and that its a S&L

Philippe has a picture of 7 'sc' Zimmermann backs showing the evolution of the PAB by the maker -none of which have the S&L style pin and every badge has a different hinge set up...could it be these guys just experimented or used a wide variety of pins..

and I also read the argument that the S&L style pin was found on many post war S&L made with left over parts for the occupation troops....my IC 4 doesn't have that style hinge and it seems very uncommon...

just trying to figure out we have a few badges with the S&L pins on a variety of Badges(IC1,GAB"s,PAB's,ect)-where does that put the 7 other variation pin/hinge setups on the 'sc' Zimmermann in the big picture..and the time frame used(S&L style pin), because of the design(hollow-solid) and material( buntmetal-zink) Philippes evolution scale of the Zimmerman can be followed in a logical way...