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**Van** · 08-14-2006, 02:41 PM

Welllllll hold on to your shorts, at this post about pilot badges( http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=172386 ) Tim Harts first badge shows an over strike of 2 different maker marks, its either IMME over Junker or Junker over IMME....... WHOA.... talk about my example of Junker looking somewhere for a part, little did I know how close I hit the nail on the head... but I would have to say the proof is in the pudden....lol... TR jewelers did infact buy parts or make dies and or parts for other jewelers....I know we will still have some skeptics out there, but I really think a re-evaluation of some medals when they pop up again is strongly needed. JMHO.....
Van

**greg.hays** · 08-14-2006, 07:38 PM

Originally posted by Van

Welllllll hold on to your shorts, at this post about pilot badges( http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=172386 ) Tim Harts first badge shows an over strike of 2 different maker marks, its either IMME over Junker or Junker over IMME....... WHOA.... talk about my example of Junker looking somewhere for a part, little did I know how close I hit the nail on the head... but I would have to say the proof is in the pudden....lol... TR jewelers did infact buy parts or make dies and or parts for other jewelers....I know we will still have some skeptics out there, but I really think a re-evaluation of some medals when they pop up again is strongly needed. JMHO.....
Van

Hi Van, thanks for posting that link. It is some of the best evidence for that argument I have seen, really great stuff. My knowledge of Luft is still limited to a few basic makers I am comfortable with....still struggling with the J2, J3 eagles, wreaths ect....so I can't comment on the technicalities of that badge. But what still grabs me about the badge that Phil posted is that it is clearly the FLL design, and that design is polar opposite of the design that FO adopted. What I wish we knew for sure is if FLL began producing and distributing IAB's before FO. Sure dates and names in a period publication would be cake but I would even settle for a NS or Buntmetal FLL IAB existing to support that theory. At least to say "hey FLL was in the game longer so it makes logical sense that a newer company would seek guidance, material...ect....from them".

**Van** · 08-15-2006, 12:48 AM

What this thread and the relying threads posted have come to "take a look at" is that multiple jewelers did infact purchase from one another, be it parts, dies or a whole badge/medal and then thier own maker mark put upon or added to....
did exhist...
Think about it???? The first "creator of the U-boot badge",,, he is not the one and only u-boat badge maker,,,, there are variants, whole new designs(WWII PERIOD), same with any,,ANYWWII badge or medal made,,, Even with the LDO standard in place, regulating how medals and badges are to be made and what they should be made out of... were they all made that way...
NNNNOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO.................If so then there would not be any difference between a Junker PO badge or an Assmann PO badge....each Jeweler had thier destinctive mark, design and some had the means to make, and others had the means to buy from, thats why There are way tooooooooo many variants, tooo many "this tread is different but the wreath is the same, the detail on this wreath is not of this maker but the eagle is and the wreath tho is of this maker,,,, man my head hurts....
When times are tuff you scrounge, pillage, do what you need to do to survive,
all companies if they are smart do it....otherwise they are a thing of the past..
I know that this way of thinking and "proof" "of what/was" changes a lot, and I mean a LOT of how, when where and what TR medal/badges in gereral are "supposed" to be is going to come crashing down, make a lot of people that are secure in thier knowledge of things have a heart attack and go nuts..
Having an open mind and the willingness to learn is the greatest commodity of the free world....is the ability to learn and live with fellow HUMAN BIENGS...
whooops, Im sorry I forgot to mention that as time went on the materials for certain things grew incresingly harder to come by, maybe you had to do with material you had built up but "when things were good" you used the better material and then ooooohhhh noooooo supplies were interupted you had to resort to the "old" material,,,,or had to find new material to make your badges, or "heaven forbid" you bought an item from a competitor....WAR TIME WAS NOT A PERFECT PERIOD IN TIME, NOTHING , AND I MEAN NOTHING WAS A CONSTANT...

LOL....
when I was a noob in computer lingo, I thought "lol" meant "lots of love" I replied to the guy "kiss kiss",,,, ooooh boy did I have a lot to learn.....

**Frank Heukemes** · 08-15-2006, 05:18 AM

Hi Van,

Your post sounds like an Appraisal Of Authenticity I have recently read. It was written by a well known German crook, worded to justify the fakes sold by him. Everything was possible so everything can be original. That was was it basically said. Fortunately, things are not like that at all. There is an immense set of rules to know and learn. If one does not want to or has not yet arrived there, one should not take the easy way out.

**Van** · 08-15-2006, 09:39 AM

I knew it was going to happen,,,,,,,

**Hans N** · 08-15-2006, 09:57 AM

Very well put Frank!

**Van** · 08-15-2006, 10:04 AM

insults are never very well put..sorry.
Does anyoneperson know absolutly everything there is to know about any one subject, not to mention multiple subjects??
I honestly did not expect a response like that from Frank..........
I am stating facts from this forum, from badges that are posted for all to see...
I am not trying to sell fakes or justify fakes in any way shape or form, nor have I even come close to saying anything of the sort, I am posting and discussing only about the badges that have been posted here in WAF that show things were not always of the norm..

**Philippe DB** · 08-15-2006, 10:21 AM

Hi Van,

Well I don't think Frank ment to insult you.

When reading your contributions in this thread it's obvious to me that recently you made a few discoveries yourself that allowed you to reach the conclusion that makers worked together and the same hardware supliers were used.

These same conclusion we reached years ago and every day we try using this insight in making the parts of a very huge puzzle fall together.

However and this is what Frank had in mind when posting his reply, the above insight doesn't allow us to accept/explain everything. Every new little piece has to fit the parts of the puzzle we already found. If it doesn't chances are real that your looking at a phantasy piece.

KR
Philippe

**Hans N** · 08-15-2006, 10:49 AM

Dear Van,

Frank didn´t insult you, i can garantee you that. He just gave you the insight of being a collector of the 21st Century and that we can not accept the luxory of the way of thinking that everything is possible. That is just what the fakemonglers expects and hopes that the collectors should think.

**Frank Heukemes** · 08-15-2006, 11:22 AM

Thanks, Philippe & Hans. I can confirm that, no insult intended, but every word meant that way. Sorry if it came across in a personal way, Van.

**Van** · 08-15-2006, 11:25 AM

I hope he did not mean to insult, I respected him more than that. I am sorry if what a lot of us that are new here are finding out things that are new to us but may be "old hat" to others, but it is exciting for us... and even to those who own the badges like Tim Hart,(sorry Tim) he had no idea his double maker marked badge was a 68 until I pointed it out, he learned something new about a badge he has owned for 2 or so years and was man enough to admit it in a post back to me, I totally respect him for that, it was an awesome thing to do...
How many posts under how many catagories are there here, has anyone read them all???? I apreciate Lorenzo Brown putting a post up asking that ppl post thier Junker Pilot badges so ppl comming new into the forum would not have to try and do a search and then have to sort through hundreds of posts that just happen to have the key word in the search pop up that have nothing to do with the subject bieng searched for.(I think I hurt my tongue on that setence,lol).
Learning never stops, and I am trying to learn what I can...
an old wise man some where way back in time said that even the master can learn from the pupil...
Van

**Van** · 08-15-2006, 11:29 AM

LOL,, Thanks Frank, I was writing a reply while you came in and posted,
take care.
Van

**greg.hays** · 08-15-2006, 06:14 PM

Well,back on track here.....does anyone have buntmetal or NS silver examples of the design that started this thread?

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