Fo IAB made by FLL

[MH184]

And black marked L/14 (packeted of course !)

[MH184]

Catch

[Thomas Durante]

Very interesting indeed Philippe! I love stuff like this, just makes you go crazy....

Tom D.

[Don D.]

Not to be a downer but have you considered early post war made with dies acquired from various makers?

[Van]

I really think that certain medals and badges that have been declared fakes or post war products really ought to be given a second chance, these IAF and WB's just goes to show cooperation was indeed happening....
These companies were jewlers and a business.. Business's order parts from other business's. Jewelers order buy trade with other jewelers. Whats not to say that a jeweler in one state, country, city would not work with eachother??? Why is it that some people absolutly will not accept that as an option, especially in a war time situation. One jeweler may not have the equipment to make a die or one jeweler has a connection or two that another jeweler does not have access to, so they order a die from someone allready set up to do so...
Im pretty sure that say "C.E. JUNKER" would have an Assmann catalog to keep up with competition but also who knows, may have even ordered parts from assman if thier machining process was down, things happen, you have an order, I certainly would not say sorry, cant do go to Assmann... nooo, I need the business, so I would say sure, come back in 2 weeks, Ill have the item for you, order the part from someone else attach it to the part I do have and hey, we have a badge, 2 different makers, its kinda simple logic to think that this could have happend then because it sure happens today, has been happening for a few thousand years. I have seen a few posts around that the badge has an original Junker wreath and an original eagle from a different maker and the badge was declared fake or post war put together when infact, it could really be an original war time period badge.. materials were harder to come by, supply lines interrupted, I think it would have been a bad policy and a death notice to a company to not think about ordering parts from another such company. JMHO.....

[Bruce Simcox]

Hi Don......

......not a downer at all. The mystery is yet to be solved as to the why's and wherefore's of the appearance of different mm's on another manufacturer's style of badge. The different possibilities/reasons for this happening seem to be endless.

It is going to be quite a task solving, if at all, some of these manufacturing riddles:

• Sharing of dies
• Marking one's badges with a different mm
• Purchasing on the wholesale market(applying different mm's on pins)?

It will, in the long run, be more than interesting to solve some of these(among others) manufacturing dilemas regarding making, marking and distribution of war badges during the Third Reich era.

[Don D.]

Hi Bruce. I'm all for the sharing/cooperation angle. I started a thread once about the Gablonzers that showed it was probable. Just playing Devil's Advocate here to break up the "Oohhs and Aahhs" crowd and to stimulate discussion.

[greg.hays]

Also, we should consider that quite possibly we are weighing geographical proximity far to heavily when wrapping our heads around a question such as this.

[Thomas Durante]

Hi Philippe,

Here is something else interesting that I noticed quite a while ago and just filed it away. It loosely ties into this thread about FLL sharing with other firms:

This picture is of the pin from an FLL CCC. Notice the striations running perpendicular to the length of the pin.

The next picture is the pin from a 6-dot, unmarked CCC. The striations line up exactly with the FLL. If someone can lay these into photoshop for me, it might be easier to see them line up, but in hand, they are perfect. For sure both pins were cut from the same machine. Both hinges and catches (both catch shape and oval catchplates) are also a match between FLL and the unmarked 6-dot CCC.

Here is the kicker, the unmarked 6-dot CCC shares the same obverse die as Rudolf Souval, which was located in Vienna! My guess is that the 6-dot CCC is another Vienna maker, possibly Freidrich Orth.

Like I said, its very loose, but proof that Vienna makers and FLL at least shared the same hardware supplier.

Tom D.

[Thomas Durante]

6-dot CCC pin

[Bruce Simcox]

Hi Guys......

......I'll quote from Skip, pulled from his pertinent 'Advertising" thread:

My main interest was discovering the 3 firms were a Liefergemeinschaft. Although I fully understand that it does not mean they were all using the same dies to make badges it does show us that firms cooperated closely together. Another reason maybe why we find company marks on badges we really thought were from another firm, or that heardware setups between firms are the same. You can bet that if they ordered 10,000 hinges from company X it was a lot cheaper than just ordering 1000 for their own use.

I, too, think that sharing of hardware is a distinct and probable possibility, as excellently demonstrated by Tom.

I think too that what Van has said about mixed parts badges, should be examined with a less jaundiced eye.

Not to forget what Greg mentions about proximity.

After all, extraordinary times demand extraordinary effort.....war would certainly qualify as such an extraordinary time.

[Thomas Durante]

So I can only image that prior to making a final decission on the above designs they also where in contact with FLL. FLL known for their unique design's most likely employed their proper designers and was capable of making a die.

Hi Philippe,

Sounds very plausible to me. I was also thinking about the timeline and came up with another possibility. FO decided to get into the IAB game and contacted FLL to purchase their die instead of creating their own. They may have contacted several firms to buy an old die instead of spending the time and money to have their own created (or bought an old one to produce the IAB for a government contract immediately, while they waited for their own IAB design to be finished). FLL sold them their hollow die and then switched to the solid back die. FO also could have bought extra hinges, pins and catches from FLL along with the die as part of a package deal and prior to working out their own "fittings" supplier contracts.

It wouldn't be too hard for FO to then add their "L/14" to the reverse die as it is in raised relief = meaning they essentially carved it into the negative reverse die.

This is also a convenient theory to help explain why the same company used several dies during the war. They used one die for a while and then when they switched to a new die for the switch to solid back zink, or wanted a change in the obverse for whatever reason, they sold the first die to another company instead of just throwing it away. Any business owner knows that old equipment still has a value and can be sold at a discount to a smaller company who is just getting up and running.

Tom D.

[greg.hays]

All great ideas and I am sure we will all be hot to solve this for some time to come.

At least I think it is safe to say That those pins ARE FROM THE SAME SOURCE. Which is certainly an important clue

[Philippe DB]

Hi Guys,

Nice to see that this old thread gets some more input then when it was first posted

I think by now its commonly accepted that most makers simply bought their hardware from specialsed companies, explaining why we find it on badges from many different makers.

In case of this Fo marked IAB I still like to think that it was the result of a collaboration that existed before the Vienna makers came up with their own IAB design.

Just like with the PAB's we can make a clear distinction between the early FLL hollow IAB's, the solid midware badges and the late war hollow Kriegsmetal variant with cheap wash finish. The marked L/14, FLL design IAB that started this thread is own of those early badges.

The WB's in this thread also proof that there indeed was a collaboration between FLL and Fo. Concerning the nature of this collaboration, as it is the case with so many other badges featuring inexplicable mm's we can only speculate.

KR
Philippe

[skip]

Heres a comparison of the two pins shown by Tom. Sure look like they came from the same machine/cutter.

The hook on that 6 dot sure looks like an FLL sturdy catch as well Tom. Looks like FLL sent them the complete setup then.

Skip