Legion Condor Panzer Badge

[Erich B.]

Additional photos.
Erich

[Erich B.]

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[Erich B.]

So, as a non-collector of these Panzer badges, is there any concrete evidence that this style of badge is definitely post war produced? After reading through this thread again, it seems that there are so few badges with provenance, and no definitive list of patterns vs. producers, that whether or not a badge is pre-45 is based on what has been seen in collections and on the market?
Is that right?
Erich

[Bob Hritz]

We know St&L produced the bedges during the wartime period. We know shared dies was not uncommon. We know Souval acquired dies from other companies, like St&L, after the war. We know what Souval's post war hardware fittings look like,

I believe the originally posted badge is a wartime example. Can I prove it? No!

The waters have been muddied for decades, but, from what I see in the photos, I would not mind having this badge in my collection.

Bob Hritz

[Nordmark]

I believe the originally posted badge is a wartime example. Can I prove it? No!

I would agree with Mr. Hritz on this one. I would not mind having this piece in my collection.


Regards,


Daniel

[Norm F]

After reading through this thread again, it seems that there are so few badges with provenance, and no definitive list of patterns vs. producers, that whether or not a badge is pre-45 is based on what has been seen in collections and on the market?
Is that right?
Erich

Hi Erich,

No, that's not correct. To re-cap the considerable amount we do know as presented in this and other threads:

1) We have a good grip on recognizing the correct pre-war 1st and 2nd pattern LCTBs from pieces with provenance and period photographs.
2) We have a good grip on recognizing the wartime mainstream maker LCTBs of Meybauer, Juncker, Schickle (from badge forensics, pieces with provenance and the Schickle catalog).
3) Likewise the so-called "S&L-like" (formerly "Wiedmann-like") is generally accepted as wartime manufacture, with S&L being the most likely maker given its similarity to the post-war S&L design.
4) Souval's known post-war design is similar to S&L's post-war design but recognizably different in the small details.

So we know a lot about six types of pre-war and wartime badges and two types of post-war badges, and really there haven't been a lot of "mystery items" posted like your badge. One "mystery item" is Gentry's badge in post #33 which is a grey area with only two examples ever posted, with similarities to the S&L design. Your badge, in contrast, is clearly the same design as the known post-war Souval badges (seen in post #15) but has the same setup as the presumably-wartime "S&L-like" badges shown in post #14.

If we saw your badge with almost any other reverse setup we would call it a post-war Souval. Since it has potentially wartime hardware we have to consider two scenarios:
1) A common post-war Souval with an uncommon leftover wartime setup
2) A hitherto unseen wartime badge which was the basis for Souval's post-war production.

The problem with the latter scenario is that there is no precedent for Souval making a Tombak wartime war badge -- they're all zinc -- so who would have made this design in wartime? Also there is indeed a precedent for a fake LCTB using the same wartime hinge and pin, namely this fake (attached) based upon the pre-war 1st pattern LCTB but with a "correct" wartime setup.

So,... is there any concrete evidence that this style of badge is definitely post war produced?

So to answer your question, yes there is concrete evidence that this style of badge (minus the hardware) is post-war produced. But it's impossible to say 100% that your example with wartime-compatible hardware wasn't produced in wartime, only that's seems statistically unlikely since:
a) it matches the common known post-war Souval and
b) this pin system has already appeared on another fake LCTB (as shown).

Best regards,
---Norm

[Norm F]

We know St&L produced the bedges during the wartime period. We know shared dies was not uncommon. We know Souval acquired dies from other companies, like St&L, after the war. We know what Souval's post war hardware fittings look like,

I believe the originally posted badge is a wartime example. Can I prove it? No!

I agree that this remains a possibility. If, for example, S&L produced the wartime "S&L-like" badges with this setup with one die and near the end of production came up with this second die which was later passed on to Souval in the post-war period, then that could explain a rare wartime badge with an "S&L-like" setup. We just can't know.

I think it will remain a "mystery badge', and so far it's the only one to turn up on the forum.

Best regards,
---Norm

[Norm F]

As an interesting aside, here are some stills from April, 1945 surrender footage on Youtube showing the LCTB in wear. It's around 9 minutes, 40 seconds into the video.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aw_-X9ofAX4

[Norm F]

It's impossible to be sure what type is being shown there, but looking at it frame by frame, my best guess would be the Juncker-attributed version.

[Legion Condor]

Hello there,

a very interesting film. I see your comparison too.
It is a piece by the manufacturer Juncker. Good to see the connection tanks and skull.

Also the fact that almost only Klietmann Juncker pieces shows speaks for it.

Thanks for sharing NormF.

Greeting Hans Günter

[Brian S]

Good thread, never seen this one. Here is the Otto Schickle catalog photo in best resolution possible. It is actually a photo of the badge, the process to make it look like this in a catalog I forget exactly.

[Leroy]

Photogravure.

[Brian S]

Photogravure.

[Brian S]

Hinge.

[Norm F]

Photogravure.

Or perhaps more likely rotogravure, more appropriate to newspapers and periodicals rather than art prints.

Best regards,
---Norm