Legion Condor Panzer Badge

[AlikN]

Just for reference, here are the two variants of the "S&L-like" LCTB.

Best regards,
---Norm

I would say "setup 2" is earlier than "setup 1", obverse of "setup 2" is crisper too.

[juoneen]

Your argument is compelling, although I feel closer and clearer photos might be in order for more scrutiny.
I feel it may be possible the hardware may have been added due to the black areas at the hinge and hook areas, although the face also has been darkened....possibly to divert attention from those other areas.
Souval supposedly used up original components I am told at first from stores of parts he obtained in the beginning, then later manufactured his own as these components were used up.
I see some differences, and similarities...but cannot for sure make up my mind either way on originality without clearer and more in focus photos .
I am finding the new mini I pads take excellent photos..., I wouldn't want to condemn the badge until It gets its fair scrutiny first, that is to spend some serious time comparing it to other similar badges of the style it catagoricly fits into by my own methods .
So if you want to post some better shots , it may help, but if not, to me I can't decide without .

[Legion Condor]

Hello,

the piece was not sawed. The loop is not typical of the original War pieces. Only from Soval so known.

Also the tanks and oak leaf wreath have deviations, not the quality of the original S & L items.

I consider these pieces of postwar pieces of Soval.

Norman has better written and answered 100% correct.
My English is not so good, I could not have said it better.

Greeting LC

Hans Günter

[Leroy]

'Legion Condor' has posted photos of just the lower wreath area of several badges to support his conclusion that, on genuine wartime badges, the tips of the "gathering ribbons" (my phrase) always point noticeably downward, as opposed to pointing out to the left and right sides. He indicated that what was shown came from "Juncker, Meybauer, Schickle, 1.Spanien, 2.Spanien and S & L War piece".

Perhaps I have missed something, but has anyone simply shown, by manufacturer, the full obverses and reverses of all badges considered today to be commercial pieces available from known manufacturers which are original to the period? While great study has been made of badges, with photographic support, supposedly awarded to and/or worn by German Spanish Civil War veterans in early days (whether cast or stamped, made in Germany or elsewhere, with weird hardware, sewn on, or with slightly more conventional hardware), do we know what the commercial pieces looked like? To this day, I don't know what a wartime S&L piece looked like for sure...or a Juncker or a Meybauer, or even a Schickle (whose catalog illustration seems to be disputed by some as not even being really Schickle). Did Souval make a wartime version? The logic that a piece awarded very scarcely would only have one or two commercial manufacturers simply does not hold true for German pieces.

Here is a piece, unidentified by manufacturer, which was said by a couple of "experts" many years ago to be the only one they would accept as an original commercial piece. Nice piece, IMO, but hardly likely to be the only real commercial piece. Where are they and what do they look like?

[Legion Condor]

Hello,

Juncker, Meybauer, Schickle and the ceremony piece 1 model and 2 model I will prove in my book through portraits and other good facts.

S & L will always be a problem. There is a variant where I would say that it is. An original S & L

This I will only write so in my book, because the evidence of S & L are very thin. Man can not prove photos Portraits these pieces. Only 2 pieces of S & L are known to me from groups. Both are identical.

In the photos you can see no difference. Since we can not see the back.

But in forums and collectors have seen as much S & L and Soval that it can not at all original to trade.

Greeting LC

[Leroy]

But in forums and collectors have seen as much S & L and Soval that it can not at all original to trade.

Greeting LC

The problem is that in all discussions about Condor tank badges and S&L and Souval, all have been labelled postwar. Based on a comparison to your photos (lower part of wreath only), IF I have read the "sequence" correctly, the badge I posted in Post #19 is the "true" S&L wartime piece (with the "Weidmann-like" hardware - as suspected all along by Norm) . If so, I would love to have one.

Do you have a publication date for your book? I hope it is soon.

[Legion Condor]

The piece of mail 19 I think is good, but really just exactly this variant. One can well see that it is cut out.
Not like the other pieces, just marked.

For all other versions of S & L and Soval I have strong doubts.
I will closely discuss the subject in my book.

The 2 books are to come on the market in November 2015. But only only in German.

Greeting LC

Hansgünter

[Norm F]

Perhaps I have missed something, but has anyone simply shown, by manufacturer, the full obverses and reverses of all badges considered today to be commercial pieces available from known manufacturers which are original to the period?

Hi Gentry,

A lot of points in one post, but to answer the above question, yes they've been shown but scattered in many threads. I'll quickly post a summary of the types discussed.

As Hans Günter said they are the pre-war 1st and 2nd pattern pieces (special ordered by General Wilhelm von Thoma) and later the wartime "commercially-produced" Meybauer, Schickle, Juncker and "S&L-like".

The pre-war 1st and 2nd pattern badges are discussed and illustrated in these threads:
http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=746646
http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=775272
so I won't bother re-posting them.

Of the presumably WW2 era badges, the "S&L-like" has been the topic of the current thread and is illustrated already, and the tentative but unproven attribution is based upon the similarity to S&L's 1960 version as described in this thread:
http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=348192. Although not commonplace, these are nevertheless the most common of the presumed wartime badges.

I'll post the other three in the next posts.

Best regards,
---Norm

[Norm F]

Meybauer

Here is the Meybauer-attributed piece, the attribution based upon hardware. This is the type that was included in the estate of Ernst Bartz.

[Norm F]

The Ernst Bartz piece, and a hardware comparison to Meybauer's wartime U-Boat badge.

[Norm F]

Schickle

Next, the Schickle-attributed piece. For these the attributsion is based again upon hardware matching known Schickle pieces and correlation to the Schickle catalog image. Like the Meybauer, a very uncommon piece.

A couple of past thread on the Schickle:
http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=775343
http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=764354

[Norm F]

Juncker

Finally, the Juncker, again for which attribution is based upon hardware. This was the type shown in Klietmann's publication. Like the preceding two makers, a very hard badge to find.

[Leroy]

Extremely helpful, Norm! Thank you.

Not all seem to have the "downward pointing" ribbons.

[Norm F]

Not all seem to have the "downward pointing" ribbons.

Hi Gentry,

The angle of the oak branches is a subtle point. It's best to focus on the length of the ribbons. Only the Souval has the short ribbons with the forked ends cut off.

There are other subtle features in the tank and the skull sutures but these require better quality photos while the wreath ribbon is easier to spot from a distance.

Best regards,
---Norm

[Legion Condor]

Important!

From the Juncker piece there is a material variant of non-ferrous metals which has been plated.

And the piece shown what times in my collection was made of nickel silver.

The piece of the Bartz group has a different needle hook. I think the time has been replaced. The 2 other Meybauer pieces show the original needle hook.

Greeting LC