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**fischer** · 08-21-2014, 01:57 PM

Originally posted by Thomas Durante View Post

That is a good point on the Richard Simm badges and their catches, maybe you are right and the hollow came after. But was it done to save material, or out of necessity because the crimping tool failed? I know of some RSS examples where the catch is not crimped, but rather soldered on top of the crimp. Same with their Luftwaffe Fighter and Bomber clasps; it appears the crimping tool started to fail requiring the catch and hinge to be soldered right on top. So like what we see with FLL badges, it may have been out of necessity to switch back to new die rather than an attempt to create a new (hollow) die late in the war simply to save some zinc base metal.

Tom

Hi Tom

There are RSS solids that have both the catch and the hinge soldered in place.
It appears the crimping tool failed for the entire attachment process and Richard Simm utilized the "tried and true" method of soldering in place.

Now, if Simm is already soldering the hardware set up to the reverse of the solid examples, what other reason would he change to a hollow configuration if not to save on materials?

Best regards, fischer

**Norm F** · 08-21-2014, 02:12 PM

Originally posted by Norm F View Post

So, pulling all this together, the possible time periods for hollow zinc production are:

A) 1941-2 - between Tombak production and solid zinc production and possibly overlapping on either end, or
B) 1944-5 - to conserve materials, or
C) post-war from leftovers or new strikes on original tooling (the age-old "zinc question") or
D) any combination of the above

At least it seems pretty sure that hollow zincers would have been against regulation after March 1942 until such time as the regulations may have changed.

And so the search for evidence continues...

This is exciting. I think we may have achieved world peace.

Best regards,
---Norm

**PKAliebhaber** · 08-21-2014, 02:23 PM

Originally posted by Norm F View Post

This is exciting. I think we may have achieved world peace.

Best regards,
---Norm

I havent seen this before, sorry good overview

so can we make A) 1941-2 more detailed?

I think this time periode should be/ was very short to produce all this hollow zinc badges.

**Thomas Durante** · 08-21-2014, 06:36 PM

Originally posted by fischer View Post

It appears the crimping tool failed for the entire attachment process and Richard Simm utilized the "tried and true" method of soldering in place.

Hi Don,

I agree, but how do we know they weren't using these same hinges and catches before they switched to solid-back IAB production? Both the hinge and catch are formed with baseplates, which is what we expect to see for soldering onto zinc badges. They used them on their Wound badges, and as far as I know there was no preceeding version where these were crimped into place. I think these were just standard RSS hardware, whether they were crimped in or soldered.

Looking at the reverse of the "hollow" RSS badges, I wouldn't consider them truely hollow badges in the sense that the reverse die is not shaped exactly like the obverse die. They are more "semi-hollow" IMO, and therefore consistent with an effort to thin out the badge as a cost savings measure. But not true hollow badge.

Tom

Attached Files

**Thomas Durante** · 08-21-2014, 07:18 PM

Hi guys, updated list attached.

Originally posted by fischer View Post

I think your listing of the ShuCo - ShuCo Design examples is still not correct.

For the ShuCo (4 & 5 stem) you have "No" marked for hollows.
There is a ShuCo (5) vein hollow zinc example.

Hi Don

This was a mistake on my part, I simply forgot to change the word "No" to "Yes" in the chart when I updated it the first time. But I had changed the color and had counted it in the YES column anyway, so the tally doesn't change.

Originally posted by fischer View Post

For ShuCo Design (4 stem) you have "No" marked for hollows.
There is a ShuCo Design (4) vein hollow zinc example.

Yep, you are right, this is one that I didn't have in my files at all so thank you very much for providing pics. This did change the tally, so the update list is attached.

Thanks guys.

Tom

Attached Files

1.jpg (126.6 KB, 127 views)

**Thomas Durante** · 08-21-2014, 07:27 PM

Originally posted by Andreas Klein View Post

No one can make me believe that those SHuCo badges are the ones of the early days.

And no one can make me believe that this SHuCo badge was produced in 1945.

Same goes for the ones that Jordi and Don shows, all very nice and well preserved compared to your example.

Andreas, I think we can both find more examples to support either side of this debate. And ofcourse there are always exceptions to the rule, but that is why I write "in general" or "for the most part" because, in my opinion, the hollow zinc badges are better quality than the later, solid zincers. Plus, I am confident that your badge didn't always look like that. Alot of factors can affect how a badge looks 70 years later and no matter how crappy it may look today, it certainly had a gorgeous finish when it was produced and awarded, whether it was 1941 or 1945.

Tom

Attached Files

**Thomas Durante** · 08-21-2014, 07:31 PM

While we are on the topic of SHuCo, remember the Hoard find in 2009?

All the zinc badges were solid......

Tom

Attached Files

**Thomas Durante** · 08-21-2014, 07:32 PM

All neatly packed away in 1945.

Tom

Attached Files

44.jpg (150.6 KB, 127 views)

**fischer** · 08-22-2014, 12:45 AM

Originally posted by Thomas Durante View Post

While we are on the topic of SHuCo, remember the Hoard find in 2009?

All solid zinc......

Tom

Hi Tom

Not all of the IAB's discovered in the "Hoard find of 2009" were of solid zinc construction.
The steel hollow ShuCo Design example was also part of the cache.

Not zinc, but hollow none the less.

Best Regards, fischer

Attached Files

**PKAliebhaber** · 08-22-2014, 03:25 AM

How can somebody believe all badges from this hoard find was produced in 1945?

Actually if i would find such hoard - i would think all badges must be produced earlier - hollow steel was definitly not a late war badge - and solid zinc for me also not. The Qualitiy of this badges was very good in my eyes. The producion time is the relevant date, not when it was awarded or when you find them.

for me a solid badge is better quality when hollow just because its solid.... look at CCC - S. WB and G. WB - all Luftwaffe badges (which was produced in much less amounts, same with KM Badges)

**Thomas Durante** · 08-22-2014, 04:51 AM

Thanks Don, I wasn't aware of that any steel SHuCo were in the hoard find.

What are your thoughts on the timeframe for these? Since it is hollow, I had always placed them in the earlier category (1942 or so, before the transition to solid). But thinking about it some more now, the fact that it is made from steel doesn't really fit into 1942 production timeframe IMO. And finding them in the hoard also would support late war production. What do you think?

Gorgeous example by the way, excellent quality and finish.

Tom

**PKAliebhaber** · 08-22-2014, 06:56 AM

Originally posted by Thomas Durante View Post

Thanks Don, I wasn't aware of that any steel SHuCo were in the hoard find.

What are your thoughts on the timeframe for these? Since it is hollow, I had always placed them in the earlier category (1942 or so, before the transition to solid). But thinking about it some more now, the fact that it is made from steel doesn't really fit into 1942 production timeframe IMO. And finding them in the hoard also would support late war production. What do you think?

Gorgeous example by the way, excellent quality and finish.

Tom

its dosent make sense! You will never find steel badges in late war production

It would fit perfectly in the thinking, that all this hoard find badges are more early to mid war productions... hollow steel and then solid zinc. perfect logic. Why you dont find hollow zinc badges then in there?

You dont want to see it...

And when you say hollow zinc badges are better quality its also wrong. The only logically reason you maybe sometimes find such hollow zinc badges in a good shape maybe is for me, that they produced so late, that they maybe was never awarded and worn. This makes sense

**Thomas Durante** · 08-22-2014, 08:06 AM

Why would a hoard find have mid war badges in it? Its possible, but I think its more likely to find badges that were made at the end of the war then put in storage. Same goes for the S&L souvenier boards, I would expect to see what was left at the end of the war.

As far as the steel badges go, I can see both sides of the coin and really am not sure what to think. On the one had, I can see them in early-to-mid war production because they are hollow and they are of good quality.

But on the other hand, it doesn't make logical sense for makers to switch from tombak to zinc to steel then back to zinc. Also, their presence in the hoard makes me think late war production.

We know of the solid-back, zinc SHuCo41 badges, and I think everyone is on board with thinking these were late 1941 or early 1942. So when do the steel badges fit in, before 1941?

Andreas, what progression do you see in steel use for the wound badges? Does steel come before or after zinc? Or is it more of a mixture between different makers?

Thanks

Tom

**fischer** · 08-22-2014, 10:37 AM

Originally posted by Thomas Durante View Post

Thanks Don, I wasn't aware of that any steel SHuCo were in the hoard find.

What are your thoughts on the timeframe for these? Since it is hollow, I had always placed them in the earlier category (1942 or so, before the transition to solid). But thinking about it some more now, the fact that it is made from steel doesn't really fit into 1942 production timeframe IMO. And finding them in the hoard also would support late war production. What do you think?

Gorgeous example by the way, excellent quality and finish.

Tom

Hi Tom

I think we try to place all makers (in this case IAB's) production methods and materials in a rigid, chronological order because it fits for some.

As I stated earlier, I think we need to address each maker individually. With some of the makers being stand alone, or independent businesses and others being part of a federation, such as the A.G.M.u.K. also taking into consideration the diverse historical fabrication habits of the manufacturers varied locations (Frankfurt, Lüdenscheid, Gablonz, etc.)...designs, base materials and production methods are going to be different.

In regards to the so-called Hoard Find of 2009 and the ShuCo Design steel hollow...I too, thought these were an earlier badge because of the steel construction but have since rethought this.

The find consisted of attributed Forster & Barth flatback Coastal Artiliary Badges, Linden marked FLL 43 PAB's, the bronze ShuCo (5) vein examples mentioned above and the steel ShuCo Design hollows. Being found with the aforementioned badges along with the identical packaging, I think it adds support to the argument towards it being a later war variation.

Maybe this is an early case of recycling at work? Waste that would normally be tossed put to use in another industry. It was obviously a successful design judging by the amount of examples still around today. All speculation of course.

Best regards, fischer

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