2 x IAB what maker?

[Thomas Durante]

Hi guys,

Norm, Yes from hollow Buntmetall to massiv zinc!!!

Nothing is said about buntmetall in the document, that is your assumption. It is only talking about changing from hollow to solid, period. (i.e., hollow zinc to solid zinc).

How often do you see Hollow Zinc combat badges? quite often right?

Actually its the other way around; hollow zinkers are less common than solid zinkers. There are few exceptions ofcourse, like FLL IABs, but for the most part the vast majority of IABs & PABs are solid zinc or hollow tombak. Hollow zinkers are pretty uncommon to find relative to solids.

From that we can logically conclude that hollow zinc production was likely a short window for most makers. The likely scenario is that most makers started out making hollow tombak badges (1939 to 1941 timeframe). Around 1941 they started to switch to zink and it was just a natural progression that it would progress from hollow tombak to hollow zinc. This was short lived, because of the decree in late 1941/early 1942 that badges should now be produced in solid zinc form. So from around 1942 until the end of the war most badges were solid zinc.

Furthermore, if we clearly have a decree from 1942 that says badges should now be made from solid zinc, then why would makers risk making hollow zink badges after this time? Makers would be going against known, established regulations by switching to hollow zink later in the war.

So on the one hand, we have hollow zinc badges that are rarer to find than solid zinc badges and on the other hand we have period documentation that mandated solid zinc production from 1942 onwards.

There are always small exceptions to the rules, but for the most part its pretty clear that hollow zinc production preceeded solid zinc.

[Andreas Klein]

Furthermore, if we clearly have a decree from 1942 that says badges should now be made from solid zinc, then why would makers risk making hollow zink badges after this time? Makers would be going against known, established regulations by switching to hollow zink later in the war.

Tom, the problem is that the S&L letter is the only known document dealing with details for the IAB production which is known so far and no one can say what happend later on.

I can only speak for the wound badge as the award where the most documents are still present. In 1942 we had a simliar change from war important resources to a replacment resources (Cupal, Zinc) and after that they changed the production rules several times again until the end of the war!

The last in line was 1944 saying that there is no war important resources anymore for the golden wound badge and the overall reduction of the wound badge thickness to 2,2 mm ---- for resources saving.

For the IAB we only know that early 1942 there had been solid zinc but we don't know what happened 1943, 1944 or 1945. If they did the change from solid to hollow late 1944 (similiar to the wound badge) than it is no surprise that a hollow zinc badge is more rare than solid one.

[Thomas Durante]

Hi Andreas,

I can believe that some makers might want to go to hollow zinc production later in the war to try and save materials. And some we find with really poor finish certainly support that. But in general, wouldn't you agree that hollow zinc production likely came before solid zinc production? Not only because of a simple progression from hollow tombak to hollow zinc, but more importantly because solid zinc badges are much more common that hollow zink badges?

I was surprised to see you write earlier that hollow zinc badges are found in masses. When I look over the different makers, in almost every case hollow zinc is rarer than solid zinc. You might be right that this is due to a switch very late in the war; and I think for some makers that is a possibility (like FLL for instance). But when I look at most hollow zinkers, their physical attributes suggest they came before solid zink.

For instance, Meybauer-attributed PABs (aka 7-wheelers). Their hollow zinc badges are pretty low quality. Even so most of their swastikas are cut out neatly. Then you can find a few with partially cut out swastikas, where it appears they started to have problems with the trimmer. Then you can find some solid zinc examples with similarly partially trimmed out swastikas. And finally you find them with no cut outs at all (i.e., they gave up trying to trim it). This suggests a progression of hollow zinc to solid zink and not the other way around IMO.

Tom

[PKAliebhaber]

I believe its difficult to compare Heer with KM bagdes, like Norm always saying and do, you dont find hollow badges by most (all? I dont know many about KM badges), right?
I my mind its because the production amount of this badges. KM badges not as often produced as Heer. Heer badges had to be in a big mass produced.
If you have to produce less of a kind - and also award less, for this part of the Wehrmacht (KM) it was ok just do produce solid. Why not? its just fair, for Heer you produce MASSES - here you have to reduce material as much as possible exp. for usually Awards like GAB PAB IAB
But IF YOU CAN AND Orderd - you will always produce solid, not hollow. You see it with KM and Luftwaffe Badges - solid Tombak - solid Zinc
Same with Luftwaffe. I believe it was all orderd and also how to produce (solid/ hollow)

"Was there a real chance to safe material on KM awards? If you compare the size of the german navy to the field army there were much more combat badges for the army needed than for the navy.

In 1944/1945 there was no need for a hollow badge for a nearly non existing part of the army anymore." - YES Right

sorry Tom dont read the most of youre post, most is wrong in my opinion - not understandable - also YES its not mention Hollow BM to Solid Zinc - just hollow to solid but how often you see all this hollow zinc heer badges? Very often. Where did they came from?? Produced all in just a month or two between the order BM to Zinc????????

[Norm F]

Perhaps someone can confirm, but weren't the IABs on the Lüdenscheid sample boards and the sales cases all solid? I know there's debate on whether all these were produced in late wartime or post-war assembly for the souvenir market but at any rate it supposedly reflects what was lying around near the end of the war or early post-war.

Best regards,
---Norm

[PKAliebhaber]

Sorry this shows and proofs absolutly nothing

[Norm F]

Sorry this shows and proofs absolutly nothing

Well there's certainly no way to debate a comment like that...I guess it's time for me to bow out.

Best regards,
---Norm

[Andreas Klein]

Hi Norm,

i think the so called S&L case you are showing is of no help. The design of the attached IAB can only be found as hollow tombak, solid cupal, full-solid zinc and half-solid zinc version. There is no full-hollow zinc version known of it.

Due to the fact that we see the finish on the silver IAB vanish i would say we have one of the zinc versions on it.

[Norm F]

i think the so called S&L case you are showing is of no help. The design of the attached IAB can only be found as hollow tombak, solid cupal, full-solid zinc and half-solid zinc version. There is no full-hollow zinc version known of it.

Hi Andreas,

Just so that I'm sure I understand, you and PKAliebhaber are suggesting that near the end of the war, some makers pulled out their old dies from their Tombak hollow back badges and started once again to make hollow badges but now from zinc, with or without official approval? And that S&L didn't join in on this practice for some reason? And you're basing this theory on that fact that it makes intuitive sense in terms of the saving of zinc?

It strikes me that if we're going to speculate this widely, then it's equally possible that every hollow zincer is a post-war restrike from the old tooling assembled with leftover hardware. But what are the probabilities?

Best regards,
---Norm

[PKAliebhaber]

Its just logic. You have less material at end of war - you must produce same badges with less material. That are you doing? Make it from massiv Zinc to hollow or first or only semi hollow. If you have some old hollow BM dies and can allready use them why not (if die from a hollow BM badge is identic with a hollow zinc badge same maker)? I guess nobody would pull them in the trash.

I dont see the problem by this? Its even more realistic then every "Design-change" some people just imagine in some fora...

[Andreas Klein]

Just so that I'm sure I understand, you and PKAliebhaber are suggesting that near the end of the war, some makers pulled out their old dies from their Tombak hollow back badges and started once again to make hollow badges but now from zinc, with or without official approval?

I don't know if a die which was designed for a hollow tombak production could be used for a hollow zinc production but i can believe it. Look at the black wound badge from Carl Wild (107) and how often the die was changed by them.

And that S&L didn't join in on this practice for some reason?

I don't know if S&L was still active in IAB production at the end of the war or if they had enough work with the iron cross for example.

So not seeing an S&L zinc hollow IAB could have the following reasons:

1.
S&L didn't get a production order at the end of the war.

2.
S&L was using another die to do it which is linked to the wrong maker and we don't spot S&L in it.

I attach you an interesting Lüdenscheid thing:

Based on the overall design the attached hollow zinc IAB would be indetified "for sure" and "without doubt" made from Friedrich Linden, Lüdenscheid but it's real maker was Funke & Brüninghaus, Lüdenscheid which can be identified by it's maker mark L/56. Exactly the same IAB (hollow zinc "FLL") is known with L/14 for Friedrich Orth, Vienna.

So perhaps alot of our zinc hollow FLL badges are in reality alot more (different) makers ... using the same die and supply line for the hollow production. Please remember the letter by the Präsidialkanzlei in 1944 in which they were angry about all the different looking combat badges and that they want a standard design used by all makers.

And you're basing this theory on that fact that it makes intuitive sense in terms of the saving of zinc?

I base it on documents, logic and the known supply problems of germany mid to late war.

It strikes me that if we're going to speculate this widely, then it's equally possible that every hollow zincer is a post-war restrike from the old tooling assembled with leftover hardware.

I have written alot in the crosses section about this subject.

[Andreas Klein]

The note from the PKZ:

[Norm F]

Hi Andreas,

Okay, I just wanted to make sure I understood your position.

That bronze IAB you posted is very interesting. Stefan had earlier posted a typical appearing Schickle-type EK1 with the same stamp in it although the cross itself is very different from the usual L/56 crosses. A very similar situation.

Best regards,
---Norm

[Norm F]

As an aside, are you agreeing with PKAliebhaber's unusual theory that the progression of Heer badges was solid Tombak --> hollow Tombak --> solid zinc --> hollow zinc?

I think his line of progression is more like: hollow tombak - solid zinc/tombak - hollow zinc which i underline as well.

It would be good if we could see some groupings to support this theory like late 1944 or early 1945 documents with hollow zincers, or some hollow zincers from LDO shop/depot leftovers in vet bringbacks, etc.

Best regards,
---Norm

[PKAliebhaber]

Would be good if we see just one proof or one grouping for all the "Design-Change" ideas for f.e. "Deumer" and "Juncker" badges

sry its a bit an other topic