The Deumer oval crimp PAB... missing link finally found!

[Andreas Klein]

Good morning all,

perhaps a stupid question:

I got a information by the system about a post #211 which was written after Norm's post #210 but this post isn't visible here?

Was it deleted and if yes who did it?

Thanks in advance.

[Giel VW]

Good morning all,

perhaps a stupid question:

I got a information by the system about a post #211 which was written after Norm's post #210 but this post isn't visible here?

Was it deleted and if yes who did it?

Thanks in advance.

I did that. It was once again an incorrect assumption by "PKAliebhaber" and a personal attack towards me, and I'm really tired of it Andreas.

[Andreas Klein]

Thanks for information Giel!

[Graeme]

I got a information by the system about a post #211 but this post isn't visible here?

Hi Andreas

In post #211 PKAliebhaber questioned one of Giels comments about the Deumer connection being 100% proven.

We have discussed this connection many times and what all of us have to recognise is that some members believe the connection 100% and other members do not.
The initial thoughts on "daisy" awards manufactured by Deumer were not 100% conclusive, and this should be recognised. There is a stronger case for the awards found in "Deumer" marked packets being associated with Deumer imo.

But this hobby is all about discussion, and the more we talk and discuss in a calm manner the more knowledge we gain.

regards
Graeme

[PKAliebhaber]

Hi Andreas

In post #211 PKAliebhaber questioned one of Giels comments about the Deumer connection being 100% proven.

We have discussed this connection many times and what all of us have to recognise is that some members believe the connection 100% and other members do not.
The initial thoughts on "daisy" awards manufactured by Deumer were not 100% conclusive, and this should be recognised. There is a stronger case for the awards found in "Deumer" marked packets being associated with Deumer imo.

But this hobby is all about discussion, and the more we talk and discuss in a calm manner the more knowledge we gain.

regards
Graeme

it was calm, so why can Giel just delete the whole post without mention it? It was nothing against any role!
Just a ask a simple question from the beginning of the thread Giel can delete my post and saying "personal attack towards me" which is 100% wrong

[Leroy]

Norm - I think it is important to note that "kraut72" has confirmed that the EK2 transferred at the Hungarian Embassy on May 8, 1942, bore the PKZ number 132 (for Franz Reischauer Oberstein). There were only a total (so far as we know) of 142 PKZ numbers. Does the 132 marked EK2 not confirm to us that, by May 8, 1942, at least, the vast bulk of the PKZ numbers had already been assigned? In turn, unless we want to think that all the numbers were assigned at the exact same time, that would imply that the list was started much earlier (1940-41?) and most likely added to over time as new suppliers were needed, until, by May 8, 1942, when the cross was delivered to the Embassy, it had reached to at least within 10 numbers of as high as it would ever go.

[Norm F]

Norm - I think it is important to note that "kraut72" has confirmed that the EK2 transferred at the Hungarian Embassy on May 8, 1942, bore the PKZ number 132 (for Franz Reischauer Oberstein). There were only a total (so far as we know) of 142 PKZ numbers. Does the 132 marked EK2 not confirm to us that, by May 8, 1942, at least, the vast bulk of the PKZ numbers had already been assigned? In turn, unless we want to think that all the numbers were assigned at the exact same time, that would imply that the list was started much earlier (1940-41?) and most likely added to over time as new suppliers were needed, until, by May 8, 1942, when the cross was delivered to the Embassy, it had reached to at least within 10 numbers of as high as it would ever go.

Hi Gentry,

I agree, it makes more sense for a PK list of 142 makers to evolve over time rather than suddenly appear all at once. Unproven but logical, and possibly supported by the evidence of the shorter EK2 numbered list in October, 1940.

Like I said, what's more interesting (to me anyway) is when it first became necessary to actually mark the awards themselves with the PK number, not when a maker first made the internal list. So far we have of a range from sometime after July 1, 1941 to sometime before May 8, 1942 for the EK2 (accepting that the Hungarian Embassy 132-marked isn't a later replaced piece).

Best regards,
---Norm

[kraut72]

the freight the präsidialkanzlei came to the embassy directly,the Hungarian exchange basis 2x27 piece.The german 2x36 piece.

there was an interesting piece/is/ into the collectionone L/12 silver/900 Juncker SC,but this one sawed with sword ,remake without sword silver SC

[kraut72]

and one BWB 124-Rudolf Schanes, Metallwarenfabrik, Wien 89

[Leroy]

Thanks for the additional information.

I believe that everyone will want to know: How do you know, for sure, that the badges with the PKZ numbers were part of the original transfer, and not added later?

[kraut72]

from a museum increase register/from a diary,and the original one 1942 from inventory numbers

[Leroy]

from a museum increase register/from a diary,and the original one 1942 from inventory numbers

Excellent information!

[Thomas Durante]

Hi guys,

Kraut, thank you very much for this excellent and important information.

This is significant in that it shows that almost the entire list of PK numbers were known by the PKZ, handed out to the makers and was in use by May 8 1942.

Also important is that if these awards, with PK numbers on them were formally exchanged on May 8 1942, then it stands to reason they would have been produced weeks or even months before. Even if they were just a mere 8 days prior, then that puts the PKZ numbers in use by April and therefore we can now say "Early 1942".

Tom

[Norm F]

This is significant in that it shows that almost the entire list of PK numbers were known by the PKZ, handed out to the makers and was in use by May 8 1942.

Also important is that if these awards, with PK numbers on them were formally exchanged on May 8 1942, then it stands to reason they would have been produced weeks or even months before. Even if they were just a mere 8 days prior, then that puts the PKZ numbers in use by April and therefore we can now say "Early 1942".

Tom

I agree, but with the added detail that we can only be sure the PK number was being marked on the wound badge, EK2 and Order of the German Eagle by that date. We can't yet say for sure whether it was mandated for the DK, RK and Oak leaves as well by that date, especially since the Hungarian Embassy RK and OL were marked only with LDO numbers. (Although if I understand the previous postings correctly, the PK number marking for the DK came into place after the 4-rivet construction was mandated in the first half of 1942?)

Best regards,
---Norm

[Leroy]

...the wound badge, EK2 and Order of the German Eagle.....

An interesting juxtaposition of awards and highly unlikely, IMO, to be the only ones at the time.

It seems more and more likely, at least to me, that (even if unproven at this point) the PKZ numbers were an "internal list" always known, from their inception, to the PKZ and the manufacturers involved, but not directly publicized by notices or announcements in industry trade papers (which is why we don't see listings in Schwert und Spaten or Uniformen-Markt of either the numbers or of requirements to use them on particular pieces).

I look forward to additional developments.