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**Andreas Klein** · 05-01-2014, 10:54 AM

Originally posted by Panzercracker View Post

But, do your wound badges share the same characteristics from the front? The PABs I've shown appear to have a consistent progression, as well as obverse "design". I have collected a few wound badges, so I know a "Klein" will look a lot different from a "Luck".

Hi Ken,

i haven't forgot your question and you are right a Steinhauer is different to a Quenzer wound badge but that's not the case here. In this thread a catch was made to a "typical Deumer catch" which isn't the true.

I was only proofing with the wound badges that the "Deumer catch" is common stuff used by several makers so that it can't be the missing link to connect whole familiy of badges and variants of them to one and only maker.

But i have something interesting for you. I attach you the obverse of a Deumer wound badge and a Grossmann wound badge and these badges are different to any other wound badge design of all other maker marked ones. They have an extra berry at the swords (see detail in the circle).

These both badges feature:

- the same obverse design
- the same reverse design
- the same block hinge
- the same "Deumer (

)" catch

... and without a maker mark on the backside we could not say which firm made it.

So it seems that Grossmann/Deumer used similiar tools and bought their setups from the same supplier

Perhaps some of our "unmarked but for sure Deumer" badges are from Grossmann coming from a shared toolset of those firms?

Attached Files

**Giel VW** · 05-01-2014, 11:16 AM

Originally posted by PKAliebhaber View Post

Ken, thanks for the answer, BUT i asked clear Giel, so this is the "DEUMER" - Timeline for sure?

Hi PKAliebhaber,

Always a pleasure to see your posts, you seem to like me for sure!

Because I can keep on saying what I have said before I'm not going to waste anymore time to this, or you. Every statement and the way I (and many more who clearly want to stay out of this) think about combat awards and their makers, will be time after time drilled down because you are not able to accept a single thing. I respect this very critic way of thinking, it's bringing in counterparts to form a discussion, which is nice. The way you walk in here and do your thing is just disturbing. You like to wait on a reply and take a few words out to attack those. When looking for a maker of a combat award it's the whole puzzle that fits, and THAT is what counts. Of course a maker can't be discovered by one pin set up. But comparing in the different fields of army combat awards, LW awards, KM awards and crosses can give loads of info. For me it's clear that you do not have enough info yet to pick up in a thread and form a constructive reply.

But my friend I have a question for you. Can you prove me wrong on Deumer 2? I would like to take over your role for once and comment on everything we discovered, taking you on every word. If you want to join the side of the extreme critics, bring in a value argument, like Andreas with his wound badges.

@Andreas, please stop comparing the Deumer catch, please show us more stuff with cut off hinge plates on which there is a Deumer catch, THIS is the lead in this thread!!!!

**PKAliebhaber** · 05-01-2014, 11:24 AM

Great post Andreas! This even shows perfectly, that nobody can name a maker just on set up and even note just to unmarked badges, which are maybe produced by more makers then one with the same tools.

**Panzercracker** · 05-01-2014, 11:45 AM

Now hold on PKA, Andreas brought up a great point, but at the very most now, we can focus on two makers, instead of 50+. Haven't collected Grossmann, so I'll take a look through their line-up of stuff, and see if we can't keep this great thread going. And, we are talking PABs, not wound badges. It's nice to compare the hardware, from other badges, but, in the final analysis, we're focusing on the PAB, atleast in this thread.

--Kind Rgds,
Ken

Originally posted by PKAliebhaber View Post

Great post Andreas! This even shows perfectly, that nobody can name a maker just on set up and even note just to unmarked badges, which are maybe produced by more makers then one with the same tools.

**Norm F** · 05-01-2014, 11:52 AM

Originally posted by Andreas Klein View Post

So it seems that Grossmann/Deumer used similiar tools and bought their setups from the same supplier

Perhaps some of our "unmarked but for sure Deumer" badges are from Grossmann coming from a shared toolset of those firms?

If I'm not mistaken a similar situation is seen in the identical Deumer "L/11" and Grossmann "11" EK1s, and they were so identical that there was even some debate as to whether the "11" mark was a mistake leaving off the "L". I don't know if anything was decided in the cross community, but it's also possible that one firm supplied the other in the same way Gablonz supplied crimped black wound badges to W&L by the end of the war? Anyway, questions remain around that interesting Deumer/Grossmann topic.

Best regards,
---Norm

**Thomas Durante** · 05-01-2014, 12:01 PM

Hi guys,

Andreas, are the Grossmann and Deumer WBs identical? No doubt they share the same design, but are the dies identical? To me they look like they could share the same die, but I haven't studied it in detail like you have.

Thanks

Tom

**Panzercracker** · 05-01-2014, 12:16 PM

Hi Tom. Apparently there is a way to distinguish... Just came across this interesting thread, which I haven't completely finished reading yet... http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...ghlight=deumer

--Best,
Ken

**Panzercracker** · 05-01-2014, 12:25 PM

Well... according to the thread below, both silver WBs Andreas has shown, are Grossmann's, possibly one of them being, "a Grossmann in Deumer disguise"...

--Ken

**Panzercracker** · 05-01-2014, 12:55 PM

So, for posterity, this is what a Deumer WB should look like. Now, back to PABs.

--Ken

Attached Files

**Panzercracker** · 05-01-2014, 01:13 PM

...yet another interesting thread: http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...ghlight=DEUMER

--Ken

**Norm F** · 05-01-2014, 01:17 PM

Originally posted by Panzercracker View Post

Hi Tom. Apparently there is a way to distinguish... Just came across this interesting thread, which I haven't completely finished reading yet... http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...ghlight=deumer

--Best,
Ken

I'm no wound badge expert (by a long shot), but I gather there are two distinct types of Deumer marked wound badges -- the style "without berries" both solid and hollow, marked L/11 or "3", and the style "with berries" both hollow and solid, marked L/11. And I gather just the solid type "with berries" is found identical in every way but occasionally stamped just "11" instead of "L/11".

But the same complete mystery as with the EK1s, was this just a marking anomaly of Deumer's products or was there a relationship between Deumer and Grossmann?

Best regards,
---Norm

**Panzercracker** · 05-01-2014, 01:26 PM

Hi Norm. I'm no wound badge expert either, but those who are, are not accepting the ones, with the berries, as Grossmann. I find that interesting, and if completely true, totally "Kaibashes" the two examples Andreas has shown... Which in my opinion, we can then just focus on Deumer now. BTW, the Grossmann IAB "pillow crimps" DON'T look like the pillow crimps seen in this thread, thus far. So, we're down to ONE maker, IMO.

--Ken

**Panzercracker** · 05-01-2014, 05:29 PM

Just want to correct a "typo" I made here, but I think you understood the gist of it. Meant to say: ,but those who are the experts on WBs, aren't accepting the ones with "berries" as Deumer's. The rest of it remains ,as is, and sorry if that confused some readers. BTW, can some one "tutor" me on "wrapping quotes". Forgot how it's done...Thanks in advance.

--Kind Rgds,
Ken

Originally posted by Panzercracker View Post

Hi Norm. I'm no wound badge expert either, but those who are, are not accepting the ones, with the berries, as Grossmann. I find that interesting, and if completely true, totally "Kaibashes" the two examples Andreas has shown... Which in my opinion, we can then just focus on Deumer now. BTW, the Grossmann IAB "pillow crimps" DON'T look like the pillow crimps seen in this thread, thus far. So, we're down to ONE maker, IMO.

--Ken

**Norm F** · 05-01-2014, 07:07 PM

Originally posted by Panzercracker View Post

...but those who are the experts on WBs, aren't accepting the ones with "berries" as Deumer's.
--Kind Rgds,
Ken

Hi Ken,

Although in past threads Hans has called these "berry" types "Grossmann with a Deumer marking", I don't think he or others aren't accepting them as Deumers, but rather just pointing out their connection to the "11" stamped wound badges. Other threads still just call them Deumers, so I assumed the community at large accepts two different "designs" by Deumer, with and without berries.

The "11" stamped badges could just as well be called "Deumer with a Grossmann marking". We simply don't know what really went on back then, and it sure doesn't help that "11" is so similar a marking to "L/11" leaving the possibility of a "typo".

Best regards,
---Norm

Attached Files

**Norm F** · 05-01-2014, 07:21 PM

And to finish up this "off topic" tangent

, here's a comparison of the reverse of the "Grossmann marked by Deumer" to a Deumer Minesweeper. Aside from both being marked by Deumer, they both have similar finishing striations on the reverse of the planchet. I'd be inclined to just call that wound badge "Deumer Type 1" and the one without berries "Deumer Type 2" (or vice versa depending on which one the Wound Badge Guys think came first).

Best regards,
---Norm

Attached Files

Grossmann-Deumer-GWB-MS.jpg (237.2 KB, 127 views)

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The Deumer oval crimp PAB... missing link finally found!

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