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**90th Light** · 03-22-2014, 08:54 PM

And for Tom and others, the ever important war time hinge & hook.

This is the example with the prominent finishing file-jig marks,

Chris

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**Norm F** · 03-22-2014, 10:34 PM

Hi Chris,

Thanks for those photos. A nice illustration.

As I understand it, a jig is a device or setup to guide the tool used to trim the margin in a reproducible fashion for each badge. So the marks in question (sometimes mistaken for shear marks but in fact much coarser) wouldn't be caused by the jig itself but rather by the tool that is being guided by the jig. So I assume your metal industry friend was telling you these marks were caused by a file rather than a saw?

At any rate, whether a file or a saw, we can all agree they're not shear marks from a trimming stamp. So to me the next question is why a mass producing manufacturer would choose to use a file-jig setup rather than a custom trimming stamp followed by a simple buffing/deburring of the margins? I would think the latter would be considerably quicker and more practical in mass production?

Best regards,
---Norm

**Bruce Simcox** · 03-22-2014, 11:11 PM

Hi Norm......

......I believe the point Chris is making is that these marks on the sides of the wart time attributed badges demonstrate that they do not necessarily mean post war manufacture.

As to why a mass producing manufacturer would choose to use a file-jig setup could possibly be attributed to a War going on. What I mean is that sometimes it is expedient, and necessary, to use less than automated machinery if there is a power interruption.

But then again....I'm just a speculating skeptic, of course.

Nice info Chris!

**kraut72** · 03-23-2014, 04:22 AM

Hi Chris

Very good pics...but this two Souval Flak badges two different die.

and again "just" the veteran story argument.

**Thomas Bendixen** · 03-23-2014, 04:56 AM

Originally posted by kraut72 View Post

Hi Chris

Very good pics...but this two Souval Flak badges two different die.

and again "just" the veteran story argument.

Hi Kraut, atleast Chris is adding important data here which is much more valuable than "not for my collection". That the badges may be from two different dies are totally irrelevant as the point he was making is that we see these jig/saw/file marks on two wartime badges!

Kr. Thomas

**90th Light** · 03-23-2014, 06:04 AM

Originally posted by kraut72 View Post

Hi Chris

Very good pics...but this two Souval Flak badges two different die.

and again "just" the veteran story argument.

They are not from different dies at all. One badge has just been "finish file-jig" more than the other and thus had slightly more metal removed from around the edge.

The two badges match "tick for tack" and are struck fom the same die, finished the same way and have had the pin etc attached in the same fashion. This is how "RS" made these badges before May 1945.

Like or lump the veteran connection...... your choice but that is how they got to New Zealand

There is no argument on these points,

Chris

**Thomas Bendixen** · 03-23-2014, 10:05 AM

Here's the badge once in Frank Heukemes collection.

Kr. Thomas

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**Thomas Bendixen** · 03-23-2014, 10:06 AM

And the catch and a detail picture.

Kr. Thomas

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**Norm F** · 03-23-2014, 10:20 AM

Originally posted by Bruce Simcox View Post

As to why a mass producing manufacturer would choose to use a file-jig setup could possibly be attributed to a War going on. What I mean is that sometimes it is expedient, and necessary, to use less than automated machinery if there is a power interruption.

Hi Bruce,

I don't think Souval's Flak badge manufacture would experience any more resource/electricity limitations than their Minesweeper badge and yet this Minesweeper with the same setup as Chris' Flak was trimmed with a trimming stamp for mass production.

But I note that both the APB and the Flak badges have simple smooth oval outlines vs. the irregular margins of the Minesweeper wreath. So perhaps it makes sense that small runs of a less common badge with simple outlines wouldn't warrant the production of a trimming die while the trimming die was certainly worthwhile for the huge production of the common Minesweeper with its complex outlines.

Best regards,
---Norm

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**Glenn66** · 03-23-2014, 10:51 AM

I can't believe these marks are from a hand-finished file or saw unless only a single pass was made. See how none of the marks seem to overlap or are irregularly spaced? Does anyone seriously believe that the machinest/laborer or whatever you want to call him/her, only made one pass with his/her tool and never had to tidy a second section up, thereby making a second series of marks on the award?

**Thomas Durante** · 03-23-2014, 12:56 PM

Hi guys,

Chris, thanks very much for adding your two vet-acquired Souval Heer flaks. These badges certainly appear to be "wartime compatible" with believable wartime hardware and finishes and taking them at face value I think they show that Souval was using the same trimming method during the war that they used on their postwar badges. Would you mind telling us how each badge was picked up and the timeframe, if known? Despite all the negative views on vet accounts, I still think they hold some level of value and can only help to have it documented if you don't mind sharing.

Whether these saw marks are from a jig or were hand done is irrelevant to me, the important thing is that they are distinctly different from typical "shear" marks we see on the vast majority of wartime-produced badges. The rarity of these marks and whatever method was used to produce them is important thing because it helps narrow down the pool of maker-candidates to Souval (and maybe Rettenmaier or other "flatback" makers as Norm mentioned).

That still leaves the question of "when" were these light APBs produced.

Tom

**Thomas Durante** · 03-23-2014, 01:01 PM

Originally posted by Norm F View Post

I don't think Souval's Flak badge manufacture would experience any more resource/electricity limitations than their Minesweeper badge and yet this Minesweeper with the same setup as Chris' Flak was trimmed with a trimming stamp for mass production.

And so were Souval CCCs, they have typical wartime shear marks on the edges. Like the minesweeper, the edges are pretty irregular so it could just mean that Souval used typical shearing process on these irregular badges and chose to use the jig/saw on the regular-shaped edge badges like their Heer Flaks.

As far as Souval CCCs go, there is some provence to support their wartime production. A few have been found in vet groupings that I know of. I also know of several that were ground dug. I don't know of any in wartime photos, however I know of at least two that have award dates scratched into the reverse.

Tom

**90th Light** · 03-23-2014, 04:17 PM

Originally posted by Thomas Durante View Post

Hi guys,

Chris, thanks very much for adding your two vet-acquired Souval Heer flaks. These badges certainly appear to be "wartime compatible" with believable wartime hardware and finishes and taking them at face value I think they show that Souval was using the same trimming method during the war that they used on their postwar badges. Would you mind telling us how each badge was picked up and the timeframe, if known? Despite all the negative views on vet accounts, I still think they hold some level of value and can only help to have it documented if you don't mind sharing.

Whether these saw marks are from a jig or were hand done is irrelevant to me, the important thing is that they are distinctly different from typical "shear" marks we see on the vast majority of wartime-produced badges. The rarity of these marks and whatever method was used to produce them is important thing because it helps narrow down the pool of maker-candidates to Souval (and maybe Rettenmaier or other "flatback" makers as Norm mentioned).

That still leaves the question of "when" were these light APBs produced.

Tom

Hello Tom,

the one with the prominent "finished file-jig" marks came from Italy. I know the family and if my memory is correct, their dad went to action as a replacement soldier after the battle of Cassino. I can find out the NZ unit if you want.

The other badge with the missing pin (although I do have the pin), I can not say for sure because that one came from a 23 Battalion veteran who sold some stuff at a show. He was in both Africa and Italy but did not want to talk much about the war or what he did.

Here is another picture that I took of them together. The interesting thing is that the fault on the eagles wing that you noted in another thread might just be starting to develop. I wonder if that was a die fault the was progressing over time and use,

Chris

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Crusher 191.jpg (129.6 KB, 245 views)

**Antonio Scapini** · 03-24-2014, 06:12 AM

These signs are present also in some Afrikamedaille produced from Souval.
It is hard to say what kind of jig/saw made them, but they were surely hand made.

In my opinion it is possible that Souval started its BKA production near the end of the war and he continued producing these after the war with the original die (some die flaws in post war badges let me think about the worn down of the original die).

I know, we are again at the same point: how can we be sure of them?
Until today in no way.

But this thread can be another little step forward... I'm quite sure these BKAs can be attributed to Souval with very few doubts.

Here an Afrikamedaille produced from Souval with the same marks.

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attachment.jpg (84.9 KB, 235 views)

**90th Light** · 03-24-2014, 07:18 AM

And not all post-war made Souval badges have "finish file-jig" marks around the edge by any stretch of the imagination as these images show.

The badge on the left is a New Zealand brought back MS badge from Trieste in 1945 or from around Trieste.

The badge on the right is a Souval post war MS,

Chris

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