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**Alex Bolotnikov** · 03-19-2014, 02:16 AM

Not the type I would like to see in my collection.

**kraut72** · 03-19-2014, 07:21 AM

bingo

Originally posted by Alex Bolotnikov View Post

Not the type I would like to see in my collection.

**BobI** · 03-19-2014, 07:32 AM

Thomas is probably the or at least one of the most studied people on these. Frank was also very good if not one of the best on badges several years back. Now I would believe these to be real however still hard to sell. "If" I had one on my site I am sure it would draw a lot of criticism. Unfortunately there are many oriignal items the collecting community calls fake making them not desirable. Too bad, I have seen views change over the years both ways.
Interesting learning experience, Thanks!
Bob

**Thomas Durante** · 03-19-2014, 07:32 AM

Originally posted by Thomas Bendixen View Post

IMO a good one, Frank Heukemes had one and couldn't find anything wrong with it. This is aprox. the 7th badge of this type I know of. All found in different stages of wear, repaired etc. and wartime setup.

Hi Thomas,

Is there anything more than "believable wartime hardware" that lends evidence to support these are possibly wartime? As we know, wartime hardware was used for many decades by S&L after the war, and Andreas has talked to other wartime producers that still have bundles of wartime setups still left over to this day. So I am curious to see if you have any firm evidence that would support the notion that these are wartime produced. And the other question of course is that is there any hint of a possible maker of these?

Thanks

Tom

**kraut72** · 03-19-2014, 07:38 AM

Tom

onto these questions there is not a yes answer

**Thomas Bendixen** · 03-19-2014, 04:37 PM

Originally posted by Thomas Durante View Post

Hi Thomas,

Is there anything more than "believable wartime hardware" that lends evidence to support these are possibly wartime? As we know, wartime hardware was used for many decades by S&L after the war, and Andreas has talked to other wartime producers that still have bundles of wartime setups still left over to this day. So I am curious to see if you have any firm evidence that would support the notion that these are wartime produced. And the other question of course is that is there any hint of a possible maker of these?

Thanks

Tom

Hi Tom, I allready listed whats infavour and can add that the details of these badges are magnificent. I haven't been able to pinpoint the hardware to a maker. I value your questions Tom as they are indeed relevant but as you know I don't share your views when it comes to the extent of postwar production. I don't think it's valid to judge a badge that clearly wasn't produced in a very large number (you can see on the reverse that the die was broken) by expecting to see it on the few known, and often fuzzy pictures of BKA awardees. What are the chances to find it with provenance when we only have a couple with vet provenance of the much more common Juncker type? I'm just saying that more speaks in favour than against.

Kr. Thomas

**Oberst Rudel** · 03-19-2014, 05:19 PM

Hi many thanks to all for the impresions, as i said my friend have the badge for more than 20 years...so he will really appreciatte the impressions of all the forum...many thanks and best regards, Oberst,.

**Thomas Durante** · 03-20-2014, 07:50 AM

Originally posted by Thomas Bendixen View Post

I value your questions Tom as they are indeed relevant but as you know I don't share your views when it comes to the extent of postwar production. I don't think it's valid to judge a badge that clearly wasn't produced in a very large number (you can see on the reverse that the die was broken) by expecting to see it on the few known, and often fuzzy pictures of BKA awardees. What are the chances to find it with provenance when we only have a couple with vet provenance of the much more common Juncker type? I'm just saying that more speaks in favour than against.

Hi Thomas,

Thanks for your explanation. You are certainly right about me, I often start from a position of skepticism and let the facts and evidence convince me otherwise. I think postwar production was much more rampant than most of us would like to admit and it still continues to this day. Also the fact that for most badges we look at, originals were only produced for a few short years (1939 to 1945), whereas the fakers have had the other 70 years, so the odds are not in our favor.

When it comes to rare badges like this type of Antipartisan badge, I think the facts and evidence is very sparse and for me personally, certainly not enough to suggest wartime production. But I respect your opinion and the fact that you, as a well respected authority on APBs like it, that does intrique me and want for more answers to this type of badge. Threads like this are an excellent way to get all the evidence out in one place....especially for future researchers. Here are the pros and cons I see with this type of APB:

PROS
Details are good
Compatible wartime hardware
Believable finish and wear
Frank Heukemes liked it

CONS
No photographic evidence
None have been found ground dug
None found directly from vets hands

Let me know if there is any other evidence, for or against, that I missed and we can continually update this thread.

Tom

**BobI** · 03-20-2014, 10:16 AM

Originally posted by Thomas Durante View Post

Hi Thomas,

Thanks for your explanation. You are certainly right about me, I often start from a position of skepticism and let the facts and evidence convince me otherwise. I think postwar production was much more rampant than most of us would like to admit and it still continues to this day. Also the fact that for most badges we look at, originals were only produced for a few short years (1939 to 1945), whereas the fakers have had the other 70 years, so the odds are not in our favor.

When it comes to rare badges like this type of Antipartisan badge, I think the facts and evidence is very sparse and for me personally, certainly not enough to suggest wartime production. But I respect your opinion and the fact that you, as a well respected authority on APBs like it, that does intrique me and want for more answers to this type of badge. Threads like this are an excellent way to get all the evidence out in one place....especially for future researchers. Here are the pros and cons I see with this type of APB:

PROS
Details are good
Compatible wartime hardware
Believable finish and wear
Frank Heukemes liked it

CONS
No photographic evidence
None have been found ground dug
None found directly from vets hands

Let me know if there is any other evidence, for or against, that I missed and we can continually update this thread.

Tom

Tom,
I did mention earlier it was not a vet but a picker who buys gold and not military who brought me one of these. It was bought from a family he bought coins from and some other military items. I dismissed the badge and did not buy it, if I had seen this thread I would have bought it for a reasonable price. I am sure I could have paid whatever I wanted to for it.
Best Wishes,
Bob

**Thomas Durante** · 03-20-2014, 10:32 AM

Hi Bob,

Thanks for the info, do you happen to have any pictures of the badge by chance?

I think we would need more details about the family it was obtained from for it to be any real help here, as we all know stories about vets or vets families with fake items. Without knowing when the vet may have obtained the item, an argument could be made that he picked it up anytime within the last 70+ years.

That is huge problem with rare items like this type of APB. Even if we were to be lucky enough to find one directly from the hand of a vet......how can we be sure that this single example has 100% provenance? How do we know that this one vet story is 100% correct and not a mistake (which we know plenty of examples of wrongly-attributed vet stories). We really need several of these APBs to pop up in verified-vet finds, independent from each other before a skeptical person like me would be comfortable saying "these have been found directly from vets hands". There are just too many fraudulent stories out there to take a single vet story at face value unfortunately. And that is a really bad thing for this type of APB; because if Thomas is correct and they are wartime, they certainly were rarely awarded compared to Juncker. So the deck is stacked against these for sure and we may never know for certain.

What we can say though, is that there are several direct-from-vet APBs found, and they are always Juncker badges. Junckers are also the only ones that are found with photographic evidence.......and whenever a ground dug badge is found....it is always a Juncker. So the evidence is there for Juncker, no doubts. Is it possible that other makers were involved? Yes, I admit that. But without firm evidence....all we can do is speculate.

Tom

**BobI** · 03-20-2014, 01:04 PM

Tom,
Totally understood and agreed. However, it is another piece to the puzzle which "may" help this become an accepted badge some day. I would not pay significant money at this time for one nor would I sell one on my site.
Best Wishes,
Bob

**Giel VW** · 03-20-2014, 01:12 PM

Originally posted by Thomas Durante View Post

PROS
Frank Heukemes liked it

As far as I'm concerned about this type of APB I can only share both views which are expressed here. I for sure would like to have one, but not buy one...

**Thomas Bendixen** · 03-20-2014, 02:15 PM

Hi Tom,

I think its fair to add to the list that this badge has only been found in max. 10 samples. Usually a faker makes a lot. But then again if a faker made a bad die that broke, we would ofcourse not see a lot of samples.

I have often thought about makeing some kind of objective system to give a badge points after all the criterias we evaluate them after, material, provenance, pictorial evidence etc.

Kr. Thomas

**Thomas Bendixen** · 03-20-2014, 02:16 PM

Originally posted by Giel VW View Post

As far as I'm concerned about this type of APB I can only share both views which are expressed here. I for sure would like to have one, but not buy one...

Hi Giel, do you see these badges at the fairs you go to?

Kr. Thomas

**Norm F** · 03-20-2014, 02:29 PM

Originally posted by Thomas Durante View Post

You are certainly right about me, I often start from a position of skepticism and let the facts and evidence convince me otherwise. I think postwar production was much more rampant than most of us would like to admit and it still continues to this day. Also the fact that for most badges we look at, originals were only produced for a few short years (1939 to 1945), whereas the fakers have had the other 70 years, so the odds are not in our favor.

Tom

I can't comment on the badge in question, but on a general note I agree with Tom's comment quoted above. Points like "from a 30 year old collection" and "rare or uncommon" unfortunately speak nothing as to originality.

To all appearances the early 1970's was a hay-day for post-war production/reproduction of swastika-bearing badges by S&L, Souval and numerous fakers, and lots of old fakes are "uncommon". A fake badge from 1970 would be 44 years old now and pre-dates any "old-timer collection".

Again, I'm not saying that means this APB is a fake, just that that the pros list cannot include age or rarity (and in fact Tom's pros list doesn't include these points). And of course, often "accepted originals" in other categories of zinc badges share the same list of cons mentioned by Tom.

Best regards,
---Norm

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