Sniper Badge-Hand Embroidered

[Ludwig]

Just to make some order to this discussion.

At the beginning the badge was institued, but the first design was never used.
This was the announcement of the institution of the Sniper Badge award in the Uniformen-Markt.

Here it says: "... no wreath, silver wreath and gold wreath..." Just for your information. Says nothing about a green wreath...

[mjn]

Sorry guys, but this badge was instituted, produced and awarded during the war, and the picture below is an unquestionable confirm.

"Himmler überreicht an besonders erfolgreiche Scharfschützen das Scharfschützenabzeichen"

(Himmler presented to particularly successful snipers the sniper badge).

Interesting discussion. I am not familiar with this Himmler photo. Is the photo that is presented here taken from a wartime publication or a post-war publication? Can anyone list the wartime publication(s) that this photo was published in? If so, that should be mentioned for the sake of clarity.

If this is a press photo as someone stated earlier, it would be interesting to discover if other photos were taken at the same time which might show more clearly what was in Himmler’s hand.

It would also be interesting to find an example of this photo with an original captioned label still attached to it in order to confirm the accuracy of any captions printed in later publications, assuming that as a press photo multiple prints exist.

[Antonio Scapini]

It is a war propaganda picture, you'll never find one with a label on back side with inscription, as you will never find a list of period publications. If you will serch in some german archive you will surely find it!
This is a propaganda picture not a photo of a painting for an art gallery's catalog!

Btw, I don't remember where it was taken from.

PS: I forgot to say it could be post war... maybe Himmler survived and escape on the moon as on the movie "Iron Sky"... Can we prove the nazis didn't go to the moon? No, so it is possible...

[mjn]

It is a war propaganda picture, you'll never find one with a label on back side with inscription

Forgive me if I am misunderstanding you, but are you saying that when German propaganda photos were developed in the lab, captioned labels were not attached prior to sending the images out to various wartime newspapers and magazines? If that is the case, then each agency in receipt of the image would have been required to make up their own caption, thereby making the accuracy of the captions even more unreliable. I am assuming that German propaganda photos were sent out to many agencies, unless they were simply kept in a repository without being distributed.

With American press/propaganda photos at least, labels were attached so that the various news agencies knew how to describe the photos. In some cases however, the captions are wrong even though they were labeled during the war years.

you will never find a list of period publications.

Again, perhaps I misunderstand, but are you saying that no collector/researcher has ever seen the Himmler photo with the sniper badge caption in a wartime publication?

If anyone has this image in a war-dated publication, it would be great to see it and to know what publication it comes from.

Btw, I don't remember where it was taken from.

It would also be nice to know in what reference the photo Antonio Scapini posted has come from, along with the date of publication of that reference.

[Antonio Scapini]

You can find it even on Scarfschutzenabzeichen book of Rolf Michaelis.

It is out of logic think to find today every propaganda picture made during the TR with its label...

If you have time make a research by yourself, I'm sure you will find a lot of info about this period propaganda picture. I don't care about what propaganda agency made or not and this is not relevant for this thread, maybe you can do a research and post it on paper forum.

There are tons of propaganda pictures if you like this field I'm sure you will have a lot of work to do.

[Leroy]

The photo is in the Bundesarchiv and the "Bild Nr." is 183-J28608.

Here:

Inventory: Bild 183 - Allgemeiner Deutscher Nachrichtendienst - Zentralbild
Signature: Bild 183-J28608
Original title: info Zentralbild
II. Weltkrieg 1939-45.
Der Befehlshaber des Ersatzheeres, Reichsführer der SS Heinrich Himmler, überreicht besonders erfolgreichen Scharfschützen an der Ostfront im Januar 1945 das Scharfschützen-Abzeichen.
Dating: Januar 1945
Photographer: o.Ang.
Origin: Bundesarchiv
Classification: Bild 183 ADN/G {Gesellschaft}/G X {Kriege}/G X 1939 {Zweiter Weltkrieg}/G X 1939 0 {Allgemein}/G X 1939 05 {Auszeichnungen usw.}/G X 1939 052 {Ordensverleihungen}
Bild 183 ADN/G {Gesellschaft}/G X {Kriege}/G X 1939 {Zweiter Weltkrieg}/G X 1939 2 {Das Heer an der Front I}/G X 1939 23 {Infanterie}/G X 1939 233 {Infanterie-Sonderwaffen}/G X 1939 2334 {Scharfschützen}
Persons: Himmler, Heinrich|Reichsführer der SS|Deutschland (11855123X) | Wikipedia-Artikel
For free: Nein

[mjn]

The photo is in the Bundesarchiv and the "Bild Nr." is 183-J28608.

That’s great, Leroy. Thanks for posting this information. Now at least we can all see that the photo did indeed have an original caption label on the reverse and we know its exact wording based on the archive’s description of it being an original title. That much is now clear.

For the sake of argument, is it possible the 1945 title could be inaccurate given that it is a propaganda photo? Is there any way to help support the accuracy of the title, perhaps through identification of the men in the photo as snipers? I'm sure this is much easier said than done.

Of course, the photo does not show what - if anything - was in Himmler’s hand. Is it possible this was done on purpose for the camera? If so, perhaps the badges had not reached them in time for the ceremony. Maybe one of these days someone will locate a photo taken from a different angle which will yield more information. We can always hope.

I don't care about what propaganda agency made or not and this is not relevant for this thread, maybe you can do a research and post it on paper forum.

I think my questions and comments here have been relevant, particularly since it was stated in post #201 that “the picture below is an unquestionable confirm”. If that is true, it is an important photograph in regards to sniper badges. Understanding how the photo was used, where it might have been published, and what war-time captions were used with it are all important details which could lead to more evidence.

I bring up these questions and comments as food for thought instead of just accepting things at face value.

[Simon O.]

I'm afraid the photo and caption is very far from conclusive proof. We know full well that propaganda is about the message, not accuracy. In this case it would be a useful tool to boost the image of snipers and hopefully motivate them to do well.
There is one thing i find a little unusual about the photo and that is that all three have at least the silver grade woundbadge. It could just as well be that the original meeting was a sort of morale boosting effort. Thanking some wounded frontline veteran infantry for their service. Or that these three have been award the gold woundbadge for 5 or more wounds, the gold woundbadge is quite an uncommon award. Any infantryman surviving that long, being wounded so many times and with the EKI would be just the kind of thing worthy of a photo opportunity with Himmler.
If this photo is indeed what the caption claims then it needs to be backed up with documentary evidence. For example his headquarters war diary mentioning the award ceremony.

[Antonio Scapini]

It is a picture about a badge guys not about the Stalingrad battle! I think at least 100 persons in all the TR saw it printed in a newspaper! Why make a fake picture for a badge?
I hope you are only jocking guys...

Please show us some other doubtful propaganda pictures while Himmler is awarding some soldiers and explain with solid proofs why are not believable.

If we follow your logic everithing is questionable and the Bundesarchive is a possible factory of forgeries.

Ok, I will start asking in all the forum for each single piece or doc if there are solid rock provenance. If not it will be doubtful. I think no one single piece will survive.

Oh, I realized my whole collection is doubtful (like all of yours without any doubt) tomorrow I'll start selling it.

[Antonio Scapini]

I forgot: why take 3 soldiers, put on them medals, organize a fake ceremony and give a "fake" badge when you have: good snipers and one minute of work for make a sniper patch?!?

Organize a fake ceremony: waste of time just to be a liar.
Make a badge and award it: 5 minutes and all is perfect.

Sorry guys, yor logic is really a non sense.

[Chris Boonzaier]

I'm afraid the photo and caption is very far from conclusive proof. We know full well that propaganda is about the message, not accuracy. In this case it would be a useful tool to boost the image of snipers and hopefully motivate them to do well.
There is one thing i find a little unusual about the photo and that is that all three have at least the silver grade woundbadge. It could just as well be that the original meeting was a sort of morale boosting effort. Thanking some wounded frontline veteran infantry for their service. Or that these three have been award the gold woundbadge for 5 or more wounds, the gold woundbadge is quite an uncommon award. Any infantryman surviving that long, being wounded so many times and with the EKI would be just the kind of thing worthy of a photo opportunity with Himmler.
If this photo is indeed what the caption claims then it needs to be backed up with documentary evidence. For example his headquarters war diary mentioning the award ceremony.

Hi Simon,

Thats digging a bit deep IMHO :-)

I am guessing by that stage Wound badges and EK1s were old hat.

Guy on the left seems to be looking greedily at whatever himmler has in his hand...

Maybe the fact that Himmler was awarding these shows the Sniper badge was a big enough event to justify a photo op..

So far we don't have a logical explanation as to why this would not have gone into producton (Without any thought to if any shown here are real...)

There is simply no reason at all to think they did not go into production.

That a lot of men did not get or see the award they had earned, is nothing strange... think of the thousand who qualified for the Luftwaffe Ehrenblatt clasp and never saw one... does that mean they did not exist?

best
Chris

[Leroy]

What's in the box? By the way, I have no dog in this fight, don't really care about the sniper badge, and just find it interesting (and a bit 'cheesey') that an entity like the Bundesarchive would mention Wikipedia on its data sheet about this photo:

"Persons: Himmler, Heinrich|Reichsführer der SS|Deutschland (11855123X) | Wikipedia-Artikel "

The Bundesarchive is a great resource for photos. It took all of four minutes to find this one.

[chen]

What's in the box? By the way, I have no dog in this fight, don't really care about the sniper badge, and just find it interesting (and a bit 'cheesey') that an entity like the Bundesarchive would mention Wikipedia on its data sheet about this photo:

"Persons: Himmler, Heinrich|Reichsführer der SS|Deutschland (11855123X) | Wikipedia-Artikel "

The Bundesarchive is a great resource for photos. It took all of four minutes to find this one.

The profile of Himmler's fingers look like the shape of that box.

[Chris Boonzaier]

There must be something special about these guys... or Hitler would be doing his Photo op with SS guys...

[Scott C.]

IMO, it seems a bit odd to snap a 'press photo' showing the faces of snipers. It would be a ready-made wanted poster for opposition forces.