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**tgn** · 02-18-2014, 08:47 AM

Originally posted by Antonio Scapini View Post

Willi, don't you know there was an international masonic plot, a world conspiracy about these badges? How you can missed it?!?

It started during the war, and the order was: "the world must doubt for ever about these badges".
After the war the international masonic plot made thousand badges and changed his previuos order: "now we have done thousand badges, all the vet families and all the dealers must have these. Contact all them and sell only these as originals."
And so it happened.

End of story.

BTW: Forman's badges come from a family in Austria. I know it because I know the story behind. But probably the family were they came from was contacted from the masonic plot before.

That's right, belittle those who disagree. That's a sure way to prove you are correct....wrong.

Tom

**Antonio Scapini** · 02-18-2014, 09:11 AM

Tom, a shield needs 2 dies of steel and a lot of work and metal sheets. Metal sheets were made for this specific production only, and many factories were involved to make a simply shield.
1) make the design
2) approve the design
3) make the die engraving it by hands (hard work)
4) make some specimens for final approvation (need other metal in sheets from other factories)
5) start production (under bombs)

At the end of the war I think steel was used for weapons insted for shields.

A patch needs only few minutes to be made and no need a factory to start production.

I have some interesting infos about this shield, and I'm sure only few collectors know them.

Another point: how many soldbuch's entries or award certificates have you ever seen about this shield? I saw only one and it was not an official entry.
However this is another story, this thread is for the sniper badge and here there are enough solid proofs to be sure it was made and used during the war.

**101combatvet** · 02-18-2014, 09:45 AM

Originally posted by Willi Z. View Post

I see Mark Bando is listed as one of your friends. What do you think of his books? He is probably one of the most objective and honest authors out there, telling it like it was. Maybe the next one of us to see him should ask him about these badges and/or how GIs would have handled a POW who appeared to be a sniper. Perhaps with his tremendous collection of direct vet obtained pieces, he might even have an example or know of someone who does.

Hey Willi... Mark was a TR collector before jumping into the American Airborne discipline with both feet on the ground. I can't speak for him, but as far as his books go they are excellent. My point is that there have been questionable items published in books, some of which I have seen, I mentioned one reference. So, I question published sources. However, I do believe that the badge design was approved as shown in your reference material. My real issue with the Franken post had more to do with his rank after the gold badge was awarded to him, if in fact it ever was. Also, I asked earlier if any other TR badges exist with the same construction, namely a cut edge. None come to mind. Maybe someone else can think of one, if not why did just this badge have a cut edge?

**Antonio Scapini** · 02-18-2014, 10:15 AM

Originally posted by tgn View Post

That's right, belittle those who disagree. That's a sure way to prove you are correct....wrong.

Tom

Why you guys don't take this hobby in an easiest way? Why do you take each word as an attack? Is it so difficult make a laugh? It is simpler make a laugh instead make polemic! Try one time. Please, try one time...

**Willi Z.** · 02-18-2014, 11:17 AM

Originally posted by tgn View Post

That's right, belittle those who disagree. That's a sure way to prove you are correct....wrong.

Tom

You said your badge was the "accepted" type at some point. When, where, who? My interest in sniper items predates my interest in FJ items by 17 years or so. It was something my dad and I did together. So I am curious......

**Chris Boonzaier** · 02-18-2014, 11:36 AM

Here is a question.... we are talking about a Führer Befehl from August 1944... and it is an order... not a request...

Now, imagine you work for a Guy named Adolf Hitler... you have seen the film "The bunker" so you know he can throw a wobbly if things dont go his way... you know he has an army of millions and you know he has nothing against having folks strung up on piano wire....

You also know, he thinks Snipers are cool and especially instututed a badge to honor and motivate them...

One day in the corridor he stops you and says "hey, whats with the sniper badge... I really dig those guys... better than womans beach volleyball!!... Do they like the badges? "

You have 3 possible answers

1) We have them on order, a number of units have them delivered, but there is a waiting list... Heeres supply guys got their order in first, The SS guys were asleep at the wheel.. Within the army the 2nd and 5th Division snapped up the first lots... quite a number of divisions have been in combat for months, they have not got around to ordering yet..., for some of those who did, they are retreating so fast we cannot deliver to them yet... but we on track my Führer!

2) They were being made, but the factory was bombed out... we need to see about getting a new maker and delivering the ones we have at the moment.

3) Well, I know you implemented them 2 months ago and love the whole Sniper thing... but I simply could not be bolloxed to order them from the factory my Führer.... please dont hang me up with Piano wire!!

Assuming a Factory had made the sample (I assume Keitels wife did not sew it) then they just needed to place an order.... is there any logical reason why they would not have ?

Best
Chris

**tgn** · 02-18-2014, 12:38 PM

Originally posted by Willi Z. View Post

You said your badge was the "accepted" type at some point. When, where, who? My interest in sniper items predates my interest in FJ items by 17 years or so. It was something my dad and I did together. So I am curious......

1960's. See "der Hakenkreuz" magazine from that era.

**Ludwig** · 02-18-2014, 12:39 PM

Originally posted by Chris Boonzaier View Post

Here is a question.... we are talking about a Führer Befehl from August 1944... and it is an order... not a request...

Now, imagine you work for a Guy named Adolf Hitler... you have seen the film "The bunker" so you know he can throw a wobbly if things dont go his way... you know he has an army of millions and you know he has nothing against having folks strung up on piano wire....

You also know, he thinks Snipers are cool and especially instututed a badge to honor and motivate them...

One day in the corridor he stops you and says "hey, whats with the sniper badge... I really dig those guys... better than womans beach volleyball!!... Do they like the badges? "

You have 3 possible answers

1) We have them on order, a number of units have them delivered, but there is a waiting list... Heeres supply guys got their order in first, The SS guys were asleep at the wheel.. Within the army the 2nd and 5th Division snapped up the first lots... quite a number of divisions have been in combat for months, they have not got around to ordering yet..., for some of those who did, they are retreating so fast we cannot deliver to them yet... but we on track my Führer!

2) They were being made, but the factory was bombed out... we need to see about getting a new maker and delivering the ones we have at the moment.

3) Well, I know you implemented them 2 months ago and love the whole Sniper thing... but I simply could not be bolloxed to order them from the factory my Führer.... please dont hang me up with Piano wire!!

Assuming a Factory had made the sample (I assume Keitels wife did not sew it) then they just needed to place an order.... is there any logical reason why they would not have ?

Best
Chris

Eh?... Perhaps Adolf and some of his guys had other things to worry about? Loosing a big war for example...

**Chris Boonzaier** · 02-18-2014, 01:20 PM

Originally posted by Ludwig View Post

Eh?... Perhaps Adolf and some of his guys had other things to worry about? Loosing a big war for example...

Possibly... but my point is... there was an approved sample... which probably means a maker is already involved... there is an approval by Hitler to award them....

So all that is missing is a letter placing an order at the factory?

Why on earth would they not place an order? all the planets were aligned....

I dunno... for me it seems very unlikely that the guy responsible would sit around scratching his torpedo and not simply order the badges? For what logical reason would he not have?

I have no idea if these were ever awarded... but looking at the stuff WZ posted, I would find it very unlikely they had not been put into production ?

**Chris Boonzaier** · 02-18-2014, 01:35 PM

Originally posted by Ludwig View Post

Eh?... Perhaps Adolf and some of his guys had other things to worry about? Loosing a big war for example...

At the risk of seeming to go off track.... Office workers do office work... no matter what... this is an article from 1989 about the IRS duties in time of Nuclear war... and it is not even meant to be ironic... So life in Berlin ticked on, no matter what was happening elsewhere...

...............................................

It will take something more than a nuclear attack to wipe out taxpayers' obligations to the Internal Revenue Service.
An addition to the Internal Revenue Manual, which is supposed to guide the conduct of all I.R.S. employees, declares that if the bomb is dropped, ''operations will be concentrated on collecting the taxes which will produce the greater revenue yield.''
An I.R.S. spokesman, Johnell Hunter, said today that the new section -titled ''National Emergency Operations'' - had been added to the manual in response to a directive to Government departments from the Federal Emergency Management Agency.
Within 30 days of an attack emergency, the agency would expect to resume assessing and collecting taxes. At that time, the manual states, many employees might find themselves reassigned to carry out essential functions ''regardless of and without any effect on the current positions or grades of the employee.''

''On the premise that the collection of delinquent accounts would be most adversely affected, and in many cases would be impossible in a disaster area, the service will concentrate on the collection of current taxes,'' the manual says.

**Ludwig** · 02-18-2014, 01:53 PM

[QUOTE=Chris Boonzaier;6296363]At the risk of seeming to go off track.... Office workers do office work... no matter what... this is an article from 1989 about the IRS duties in time of Nuclear war... and it is not even meant to be ironic... So life in Berlin ticked on, no matter what was happening elsewhere...

...............................................
Oh, that is true! Life went on, no doubt! And – IMO – there is no doubt, that the badge went into production. There is even a picture of Himmler awarding the badge to snipers, even if you can´t see the badge itself. That some qualified snipers did not get it, is – again IMO – no proof that nobody at all got it!

**Willi Z.** · 02-18-2014, 02:42 PM

Originally posted by tgn View Post

1960's. See "der Hakenkreuz" magazine from that era.

Why don't you show us?

You are really something.......

You drone on with "no, no, no" and a "if I don't know it is original then no one else can either" on all these threads but add nothing.....

**tgn** · 02-18-2014, 02:55 PM

Originally posted by Willi Z. View Post

Why don't you show us?

You are really something.......

You drone on with "no, no, no" and a "if I don't know it is original then no one else can either" on all these threads but add nothing.....

Willi, the magazine cover was already shown. Go back several bages and you will see it. And I never said the above comments either. So please don't put false words in my mouth.

Based on the information in this thread, I have serious doubts that the any of these sniper badges are original, both the ones from the 60's and the ones that appeared in the 80's. That is my conclusion. If you don't like it, ignore it. But don't sit there and attack me for not towing the cureently "accepted" line. If you think these are the real deal, buy all you can and enjoy them.

Without any new information, there is nothing more I can add.

Tom

**Willi Z.** · 02-18-2014, 03:20 PM

Tom, I am not trying to convince you. No one is attacking you for not towing the "accepted" line. I really don't care what you like and don't like, but you don't seem to be able to accept the fact that others might, or can, disagree with you. I am also not putting words into your mouth, and have been reading your posts for years now......so I am entitled to draw my own conclusions.

**Willi Z.** · 02-18-2014, 03:29 PM

Tom, this is your proof of acceptance back in the 60's? Even without the border the badges do not look alike. It is easy to see yours is thick with a backing, and this one is not. What a waste of time.....

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