Sniper Badge-Hand Embroidered

[Simon O.]

Hi Simon -

Thanks for posting that doc from AOK 20.

Short correction/clarification from my side: I did not post an award doc here.

For this badge there was only a "Besitz-Zeugnis", not a preliminary award certificate. There was no "formal" doc to follow. Just like any IAB, GAB, TAB, etc.

I've collected sniper stuff for about 5 years, talked to snipers, true historians, collectors and dealers (very important!!!) and never did I come across a proper printed document. Only field-/unit made material....and obviously no badges, not even for the most prominent, most successful snipers...for a reason.

Anyway, nothing real to add anymore and ready for the weekend.

Cheers,
Markus

Sorry, Yeah i see it was Jacques quoting you.

it's still a vorläufiges besitzzeugnis

[Antonio Scapini]

Quick, last question, before heading out to Acapulco....

Did anyone here ever try and sell a sniper badge to a dealer (in Germany) ?

Cheers!
Markus

Weitze sold some during these years.

Nothing about my last propaganda picture guys?
I have some more to show here!

Simon, are you sure with the 20 Army there were snipers qualified?
Please post some of their Merkblatt fur Scarfschutzen or some other period documents about them, so we can see if there were snipers and if they were qualified! If not it is so obvious the badge is not listed...

We are quite tyred to read only words... We'd like to see something interesting posted here...

[Leroy]

Quick, last question, before heading out to Acapulco....

Did anyone here ever try and sell a sniper badge to a dealer (in Germany) ?


Cheers!
Markus

The PERFECT question.

[Simon O.]

Nothing about my last propaganda picture guys?
I have some more to show here!

you're being obtuse, not to mention a bit of a troll. Many have gotten an infraction for that kind of behaviour.

[Ludwig]

Quick, last question, before heading out to Acapulco....

Did anyone here ever try and sell a sniper badge to a dealer (in Germany) ?


Cheers!
Markus

Indicating what?

[Simon O.]

Simon, are you sure with the 20 Army there were snipers qualified?
Please post some of their Merkblatt fur Scarfschutzen or some other period documents about them, so we can see if there were snipers and if they were qualified! If not it is so obvious the badge is not listed...

Yep, of course I'm sure


Part of an award list for the EKI and EKII from Gren.Rgt.392, 169 ID, there's another sniper mentioned on another page but you get the idea.

[Spanish Freiwillige]

about the last propaganda photo...I still dont see a badge......

who ever wants to go walking bling without a cane in this militaria world based on wishfull speculation without solid evidence ...be my guest....

I still dont see any solid evidence of this patch ......

[Simon O.]

German snipers were pretty busy up there

[Simon O.]

more..

[Antonio Scapini]

I see the Scarfschutze Simon and some kills reported, but these are lists and reports of the unit. There's nothing abouth personal kills.
With these docs you'll never know if a sniper achieved the criteria.
Personal docs are needed to know something if not we can only make hypotesis.

Markus, if you think german dealers know these badges are fakes, I think Weitze for example (that is one of the most important of the world and is german) will be not very happy of your words...
I'd like to hear here some dealers.

Btw, sorry Simon if I offended you it was not my intention angering anyone. No reasons to do it!

[Willi Z.]

Seems like we are ready to vote on options based on opinions

I'll post some articles which may or may not help.

From 1970, Militaria Vol II Number 3, the earliest pic of a purported badge. Note the word "The", not "A" and the fact that no provenance is given for the badge. At least it dates this type to no later than 1970.

Does anyone have an EARLIER reference showing an ACTUAL badge purporting to be genuine?

Thanks for adding that Mike. That is the earliest reference I have seen to date, on an "accepted" style.

[mjn]

It’s good to see more interesting information being posted along with more rational discussion instead of the blabbering and insults from earlier. I look forward to reviewing the book pages and the documents that were recently posted, and continuing to learn more about this badge in order to form my own conclusions.

I hope that if claims are going to be made of discussions with German dealers regarding the “accepted” badge being a fake/post-war copy, those claims will be expounded upon; otherwise they mean very little. I also don’t think any dealer is above reproach no matter how “important” they are. It’s not uncommon for them to have a skeleton or two in the closet if they have been dealing long enough.

[Simon O.]

I see the Scarfschutze Simon and some kills reported, but these are lists and reports of the unit. There's nothing abouth personal kills.
With these docs you'll never know if a sniper achieved the criteria.
Personal docs are needed to know something if not we can only make hypotesis.

Markus, if you think german dealers know these badges are fakes, I think Weitze for example (that is one of the most important of the world and is german) will be not very happy of your words...
I'd like to hear here some dealers.

Btw, sorry Simon if I offended you it was not my intention angering anyone. No reasons to do it!

Antonio

The point is it shows snipers were highly active in that theatre (those daily reports are from just one tiny part of the front and not even from a full division). That means the army would or should have had some on hand in store if and when a sniper qualified, as was the case with other decorations, even if not awarded. But as I said this only goes up to the end of dec.44 so doesn't mean none ever reached Norway in '45
I also realise that this theatre of war isn't the best place to go looking for evidence of the award either.

[Willi Z.]

I think the key to unlocking some of the mystery is to talk to collectors in Germany. As we know the vast majority of the Wehrmacht fought in the East and therefore, IMO, there is likely to be much we do not know about this subject without their help. Will talk to some at the SOS.

[markus]

I think the key to unlocking some of the mystery is to talk to collectors in Germany. As we know the vast majority of the Wehrmacht fought in the East and therefore, IMO, there is likely to be much we do not know about this subject without their help. Will talk to some at the SOS.

Willi -

And don't forget the real historians who could not care less for collectibles. IMO most of the time a more valuable and true source of information. Unfortunately collectors are blinded and confused by a lot of egoistic influences...

Markus