Incredible PAB bronze

[Thomas Durante]

When I look at the picture of the Godet shop window that Andreas posted, it reminds me of a typical retail shop window. As I flipped through the "Uniformenmarkt" from 1941 trying to find the date of that picture, I was surprised to see so many other pictures of store windows with similar displays. All featuring PABs, IABs, GABs, Kriegs badges, and even Luftwaffe badges. All of these firms are names we never hear associated with "badge production" and sure enough, looking through the PK lists, not a single one of these companies was listed as an official maker of these awards.

The conclusion I reach is that all these companies were retail outlets. They didn't produce badges, but rather just sold them.

Tom

Ackermann........Becker......

[Thomas Durante]

Grimm........Stubben.......

[Thomas Durante]

Willie......Themmen

[Thomas Durante]

To wrap it up, in my opinion, I think pointing to Godet as evidence of another maker using Meybauer's screwback is not a good example, because in all likelihood Meybauer actually produced the EK1s with their own screwback and sold them to Godet.

Tom

[Norm F]

Interesting. Jan Arne posted previously his unworn zinc Meybauer-attributed Minesweeper badge in a Gebrüder Godet envelope. From this alone it wasn't possible to draw any conclusions, but when one considers the EK1's as well, it is indeed possible that Godet retailed Meybauer badges.

Maybe the screwbacks were "special orders" since Godet was an "Ordens-Juwelier" with a jewellery background as well.

[Norm F]

To be clear, the company we're talking about here is Gebrüder Godet, not J. Godet & Sohn. The various incarnations and spin-offs of Godet can be confusing but Trevor (Streptile) ran a great ongoing thread in the Imperial section on Godet which included his compilation of listings from the Berlin phone book.

The quick summary: J. Godet & Sohn was a very old firm and aside from dealing in Orders and miniatures was Court Jeweller to the Kaiser. Before the war, they boasted a "workshop in house" (Werkstatt im Hause). By 1923 they had incorporated and later in the depression they amalgamated with several other jewellery companies including Werner. In late 1930, Gebrüder Godet & Co. started up, seemingly in competition and their ads always appeared alphabetically just before J. Godet & Sohn of Godet-Werner. Gebr. Godet boasted the link to the past as the "oldest Orders-Jewellers" while J. Godet in Sohn in turn claimed the Godet heritage "since 1761" and emphasized they could be found "ONLY on Unter den Linden", in contrast to Gebr. Godet's address.

Part owner of the new Gebrüder Godet & Co. was Wolf Conze, the owner of Wilhelm Deumer. It's Gebrüder Godet that had the PK number 21 and the LDO number L/50, and whose shop window was shown in Uniformen-Markt. It certainly remains possible that Gebrüder Godet, as a jeweller, was involved in select award or miniature production or perhaps semi-custom work with parts supplied by others (?), but they certainly don't seem to have been a "Metallwarenfabrik" or mass producer of war badges.

Best regards,
---Norm

[Norm F]

Gebrüder Godet is definitely listed by the Präsidialkanzlei among the "Herstellerfirmen für Orden und Ehrenzeichen", licensed to make Orders and awards for the private market, so they must have been involved in some aspect of Orders manufacture, but that doesn't mean they had to have made a wide range or even any combat badges.

[Bruce Simcox]

Well.......

......Quote from Tom D.

If this is true, can anyone show one of these screwbacks on another maker's cross? If this can be done, then I think Andreas has a valid point and this screwback doesn't automatically mean this badge was produced by Meybauer.

You asked for it. You recieved it. But, it still isn't enough.

Now it seems that 70 years after WWII Godet's manufacturing processes are just now being revealed as limited to special orders. How convenient. And somehow in the last 24 hrs. it has been determined, by someone, that Godet was merely a retail shop for other manufacturers.....how?

can anyone show one of these screwbacks on another maker's cross? If this can be done, then I think Andreas has a valid point and this screwback doesn't automatically mean this badge was produced by Meybauer.

At this point i do not see how that would be possible.
One of my favorite sayings is the following

A horse can be lead to water, but it cannot be made to drink

[BassD]

@ Tom

thanks for the tip with the IC

@ Norm

Godet was able to prodcue large quantities of badges.

After the information on 5.7.1944 that Godet was totally bombed out and all files are destroyed the PK make for Godet a list with all order for the Volkspflege Ehrenzeichen

for example...only from the Medaille für deutsche Volkspflege the have an order over 135.000 pieces and till they are bombed out they delievered 105.242 to the Präsidialkanzlei. So Godet was not a small jewellery. Obviously they have the maschines, and the menpower.

[BassD]

..., so they must have been involved in some aspect of Orders manufacture, but that doesn't mean they had to have made a wide range or even any combat badges.

before i reply... for my better understanding.

Do you mean that they not make combat badges or even make only a short range of awards?

[Thomas Durante]

You asked for it. You recieved it. But, it still isn't enough.

And I thank you for it Bruce. But when you scratch the surface you can see that Godet likely didn't make most of their wares. This is especially true when it comes to the EK1. This comes from collectors that know a hell of a lot more about the EK1 then you or I ever will, so if you would like to ignore all this then I think you are right, your favorite saying does apply.

To be clear, the company we're talking about here is Gebrüder Godet, not J. Godet & Sohn.

Correct Norm. I am sorry if I confused things a bit when I posted one of streptile (Trevor) comments below, but I think it was significant to show the difference between these two firms:

..although Gebr. Godet didn't mark Imperial orders as reliably as did J. Godet. In part I think this is because they bought many of their wares from others. Mostly they sold unmarked orders in Gebr. Godet marked cases.

This is great comment from Trevor because it shows the difference between the two firms. J. Godet marked their awards more because they actually produced them. In comparison, Gebr. Godet didn't mark their stuff as much because they didn't make them.

I don't doubt that Gebr. Godet may have made some awards in house, but after reading all these threads, the evidence suggests this was more the exception to the rule and that they bought most of their stuff from others.

Tom

[Andreas Klein]

It's really nice what kind of efforts are made to downgrade Godet from a maker to a pure retail seller.

And I thank you for it Bruce. But when you scratch the surface you can see that Godet likely didn't make most of their wares. This is especially true when it comes to the EK1. This comes from collectors that know a hell of a lot more about the EK1 then you or I ever will, so if you would like to ignore all this then I think you are right, your favorite saying does apply.

Did they Show any proof for that - i think no, this is only the unproven personal opinion of several people, for sure well respected - but respect is not an evidence.

Go some years back and you will find alot of threads from people who "know" alot more about the infantry assault badge and which all are still respected collectors identfying ÜÜ marked badges as "Wernstein, Jena" or the nowdays "Steinhauer+Lück" as "Juncker" badges ....

Believing is not knowing.

[Thomas Durante]

Go some years back and you will find alot of threads from people who "know" alot more about the infantry assault badge and which all are still respected collectors identfying ÜÜ marked badges as "Wernstein, Jena"

Yes this wass true for many decades. All because 1 person misidentifed the maker mark as Wernstein back in the 1950s and for many decades no one thought to question this. It was only in the last 10 years was this questioned thanks to the forensic collectors who noticed that hardware found on Wernstein-marked badges was no where close to what we see on the Wiedmann badges. Also the fact the IABs found in Wernstein-marked packets were not those bearing the ÜÜ mark. Thanks to forensic analysis, we were able to reveal that the ÜÜ badges were not Wernsteins. This was discussed for many years before Frank's GAB book came out in 2005, which also documents this and a full two years before Sascha's Weber's article came out with the final proof of Wiedmann's logo in 2007.

Tom

[Andreas Klein]

Tom, indeed Frank was the first person who thought that ÜÜ was not Wernstein (whysoever) ... as it can still be read here in the WAF after that the officicial opion about ÜÜ changed into:

"W" is probably WIEN and the five dots are probably 5 makers in the Association. Sure is only that Orth ways one of them. Likely is that Hobacher was on of them (because of the font used). The other makers are unknown and I just named a couple of Vienna based makers.

The true came out when BassD (it was not Sascha Weber) posted the photo of the Wiedmann factory in Frankfurt with the big ÜÜ logo on teh wall - so in fact it was not the forensic which identified the maker.

But i see no proof that Godet was only a retail seller without own prduction in this case or your answer.

[Thomas Durante]

The truth still remains that it was thanks to forensics, many years before the final proof came along (from Basti, not Weber my mistake) that Wernstein was ruled out as the maker. Frank was misled down the wrong road by "eyewitness" accounts that turned out to be inaccurate (surprise surprise). But even back then all the pieces didn't fit for Wien due to the forensics, that is why he states "probably" several times.

No one here is saying that Godet was a pure retail seller. But based on alot of well respected collectors opinions, there is little doubt that they did sell other-makers products. And this is especially true when it comes to the EK1.........which is the exact award you and Bruce are pointing to as proof that other makers used the Meybauer screwback. If that is the only "proof" you can find of other makers using the Meybauer screwback, then I am all but convinced that Meybauer alone was the only maker who used their screwback.

Tom