Incredible PAB bronze

[Thomas Durante]

......, before we start all the back-slapping and opening up the champagne, a DRGM mark is still some distance from solid evidence....nice try guys.

Ofcourse Bruce, same old arguement. A single piece of evidence, like Patrick's PAB above, is certainly not enough to point to Meybauer. But when you combine it with all the other pieces of evidence, it is as rock solid as you can get in this hobby. These 7-wheelers have been known to be Meybauers for years now, and Patrick's discovery fits perfectly. For those that know why these are identified as Meybauers, it is no surprise when a PAB like this pops up with a Meybauer screwback.

Tom

[Bruce Simcox]

Hi Tom......

These 7-wheelers have been known to be Meybauers for years now

You did write the following quotation posted on 6/11/2013 concerning a bronze, 7-wheeler PAB posted by another member:

As far as Meybauer goes, its not 100% conclusive but what is in our hobby?? There is enough for me to say they were likely made by Meybauer, but who knows what tomorrow may bring

So....which is it?
Quote #1 - These 7-wheelers have been known Meybauers for years now
or
Quote #2 - They were likely made by Meybauer

IMHO without some solid conclusive evidence demonstrating that Meybauer is the manufacturer of 7-wheeler PABs I am going to go with quote #2.

I want to believe....in fact not fantasy. Granted, you have been following a very compelling trail of breadcrumbs headed in Meybauers direction(and taking us with you) but, there is still some distance to travel before 7-wheeler PABs are going to end up unequivocally on Meybauers doorstep. So far all we have are some tantalizing tidbits.

If, or when, that elusive piece, or a combination of pieces, of evidence comes to light I will be more than happy to celebrate.

Until that time they are just other unmarked and unknown combat badges that were likely manufactured by Meybauer.

[Thomas Durante]

So....which is it?
Quote #1 - These 7-wheelers have been known Meybauers for years now
or
Quote #2 - They were likely made by Meybauer

IMHO without some solid conclusive evidence demonstrating that Meybauer is the manufacturer of 7-wheeler PABs I am going to go with quote #2. [B]

Um........both are correct Bruce. Surely you know that these 7-wheelers have been being called Meybauers for years. Is it 100% conclusive? For me, Giel and others there is no doubt these were made by Meybauer. But others, like you are still not convinced so that is why "likely made by Meybauer" is also correct. I agree that we don't have 100% conclusive proof, but there is enough for me to be convinced. Much like the theory of evolution. There should be no doubt that evolution is correct because of the overwhelming evidence, yet it is still just considered a "theory" by many.

but, there is still some distance to travel before 7-wheeler PABs are going to end up unequivocally on Meybauers doorstep. So far all we have are some tantalizing tidbits.

That is your opinion Bruce, and I can respect that. If you really believe this, then certainly continue to call these "unknown maker" or "unknown but possibly Meybauer", whatever you like. On the other hand, for me there is no "distance left to travel for 7-wheelers being on Meybauer's doorstep". Meybauer made these and I will continue to call them Meybauers because that is my opinion, which I would think you can respect as well.

If, or when, that elusive piece, or a combination of pieces, of evidence comes to light I will be more than happy to celebrate.

Cool. We will celebrate together. But I don't hold my breath for such things because short of a signed affidavit from Meybauer saying they produced this exact PAB accompanied by real photographs of said PAB, I think some people will never be convinced.

You would think a screwback with Meybauer's DRGM number on it, which is always and only found on Meybauer-produced products, pops up on an attributed Meybauer PAB would be enough proof to push any skeptic over the edge. But not so. The skeptics immediately come out to say that the screwback could have been sold to other makers, even though not a single shred of evidence is put forth to support this claim. Its easy to poo-poo a big discovery like Patrick's by the naysayers, but if you would like to be taken seriously then I suggest posting some evidence to back up your negative claim. For those that think Meybauer sold their screwbacks to other makers, then shouldn't be hard to post some examples of these screwbacks badges with other maker-marks on them.

Tom

[Bruce Simcox]

Hi Tom......

I guess asking for proof is just a little too much to be expected. But, of course, that is how we skeptics get to the bottom of things.

I never made any 'negative claims' in this thread. I merely sought proof. Now, I should have to prove that you're wrong? What a neat, convenient response.

Gosh Tom I never really thought that being 'taken seriously', as you put it, was an issue. I guess questioning someone on the merits of claims they have made, that are based on incomplete information, means that the questioner couldn't possibly be a serious collector.

Be careful not to question people about their knowledge of militaria, or the associated claims they might make, or you won't be taken seriously. Wow.

[Thomas Durante]

Hi Bruce,

If you are looking for 100% proof, I think you will be disappointed in this hobby. There is very little proof of anything.

Rather, there is "evidence" that we can point to such as:

1. 7-wheelers have hand cutouts, which is a Meybauer trait.
2. Hardware is typical of other Meybuaer products (specifically the flattened pin, which is very, very rare to find on any badge, but was used by Meybauer).
3. Screwback with Meybauer's DRGM number on it (which is also found on Meybauer-marked WW1 and WW2 EKs).

None of this is 100% proof that Meybauer made these badges, but rather pieces of evidence. It is up to each person to determine if this is enough "evidence" to "prove" Meybauer made these badges. For you, obviously not. For me, yes, it is enough evidence for me to say confidently they were made by Meybauer. Much like a murder conviction can made without a body. Despite not having a body, other forensic evidence can be used to positively id a person with the crime (i.e., DNA, fingerprints, time sequence, etc.).

You are a serious collector, no doubt about it. But for your "arguments" to be taken seriously, then some evidence should be put forward to support your opinion that Meybauer is not the maker of these. Our side has put forward some evidence as mentioned above, so where is your evidence to counter this argument? When evidence is only put forward on one side, but the other side posts none, then it gets to a point where it appears you are arguing just for the sake of arguing and what is the point in that?

Why not mention that fact that one of these Meybauer PABs or GABs were found in a Wernstein-marked packet? That would be a good start.

Tom

[Andreas Klein]

Why not mention that fact that one of these Meybauer PABs or GABs were found in a Wernstein-marked packet? That would be a good start.

Tom

Hi Tom, did i miss your start where you've shown a IAB, GAB or PAB in a Meybauer-marked packet?

You always want from people that they have to show such hard facts as evidence that you are wrong but where are the same evidences showing that you are right?

[Thomas Durante]

Hi Tom, did i miss your start where you've shown a IAB, GAB or PAB in a Meybauer-marked packet?

You always want from people that they have to show such hard facts as evidence that you are wrong but where are the same evidences showing that you are right?

Hi Andreas,

No, I don't know of any Meybauer-marked packets for IABs, GABs or PABs.

The evidence that I am right is posted above. It may not be conclusive to you or others, and that is fine. You may be exactly right, but for people to see your point of view then you should post some evidence that points away from Meybauer. The only evidence I know of is the Wernstein-marked packet. I admit, this is certainly a piece of evidence that makes me think twice about the Meybauer connection. But we all know that a single packet could be switched so to me that is not 100% proof of anything. However, if we find a bunch of Wernstein packets with these 7-wheelers in them then we would take it more seriously.

Tom

[Andreas Klein]

Hi Andreas,

No, I don't know of any Meybauer-marked packets for IABs, GABs or PABs.

So we can say that you have nothing more as the people you are criticize for not following your trail.

The evidence that I am right is posted above.

Which i accept and respect as your personal opinion. To make an evidence out of an opinion i and many other would like to see some backup - which isn't there.

[Thomas Durante]

i accept and respect as your personal opinion. To make an evidence out of an opinion i and many other would like to see some backup - which isn't there.

My backup is posted above. I list 3 things that point to Meybauer. I probably missed some more, but that is what quickly comes to mind. That is my backup.

I am interested in seeing your backup. Wernstein packet is one. Anything else? I hear alot of argueing against Meybauer, but when the rubber hits the road there is nothing I see that suggests Meybauer is the wrong connection. You are a smart guy, I don't doubt that Andreas. And you are fervent in your belief that Meybauer wasn't the maker of these, so I am just curious of what you see that makes you think that.

Tom

[Andreas Klein]

Well, to post that a certain badge has hand cutouts or a certain hardware and that is "typical" exclusive Meybauer is only unproven argueing and at least 1 marked Wernstein packet is 100% more evidence than 0 marked Meybauer packets.

The Meybauer link is living only because you repeat it again and again and again and whenever someone is questioning it you want to see hard evidences that your spoken word is not correct.

To be honest i have no problems to believe that Paul Meybauer was able to produce all kind of awards .... but with this ability he stood on the same level as each other metal working firm too.

Perhaps Patrick's excellent PAB was done or sold by Meybauer - why not. But that doesn't answer the question if every so called 7-wheeler badge and it's variants are all made from Paul Meybauer. And here is the difference between our two schools. Your goal is to link the whole design of a certain badge to one maker and you believe that from that point this maker had produced all badges on the market. The question why to the hell this maker wasn't able to mark a single of his badge isn't a valid point for you.

The school which i prefer is very carefull when it comes to unmarked badges because we accept the facts of third party supliers and master tools which are a "no" for any "typical xyz" evidence. When it comes to unmarked stuff it is impossible to say for sure how many makers were involved in it.


To make a long post short:
I didn't want to have another maker discussion in this thread because as i said last year i don't care that much if your school believes that the earth is a disk or not. I was pointed by someone to the "friendly" comment about the eating dust for all the disbelievers outthere and found the false statement about DRGM.

That was the reason for my above post #19 and not which kind of maker connection you prefer this time. This year it's Meybauer, next year it's Donald Duck for you.

Due to lack of time i can't tell more about DRGM at the moment but will do it later for sure.

[Bruce Simcox]

Hi Tom.......

......Let me clarify some things first. I do not know how you missed the following:

• I have never given anyone the impression that I thought Meybauer was not the manufacturer of the unmarked 7-wheeler PAB. On the contrary, all I have ever been interested in is a clear chain of evidence to show that Meybauer did produce the 7-wheeler. Since they don't have manufacturing marks on them speculation has become the order of the day.

Our side has put forward some evidence as mentioned above, so where is your evidence to counter this argument? When evidence is only put forward on one side, but the other side posts none, then it gets to a point where it appears you are arguing just for the sake of arguing and what is the point in that?

• “He who asserts must also prove.” -- Aristotle

• When you make a claim, the burden of proof is on you to demonstrate that claim.

So Tom, since I have not made a claim that Meybauer did not make the 7-wheeler...who's arguing? And since I haven't made any claim what proof am I being asked for that would be relevant to anything I have posted concerning the matter at hand?

Ok. We are beyond the first part of my response so let's move to the next item. Examining your 'evidence.'

1. 7-wheelers have hand cutouts, which is a Meybauer trait.

• (if I'm not mistaken ...weren't there a lot of other companies involved in the production of TR badges that also employed hand-finished cut-outs? Or did Meybauer exhibit a particular 'style' in their cut-outs, which would make them unique, and readily identifiable as being associated with Meybauer and only Meybauer?)

2. Hardware is typical of other Meybuaer products (specifically the flattened pin, which is very, very rare to find on any badge, but was used by Meybauer).

• (this specific manufacturing use of these certain style of pins was determined how?)

3. Screwback with Meybauer's DRGM number on it (which is also found on Meybauer-marked WW1 and WW2 EKs)

• (I have to admit that this is a compelling peice of the puzzle, but by no means conclusive. I wonder why they didn't mark their alleged 7-wheelers? We'll never really know now, or will. we?).

• The reason, Tom, for my skepticism stems from the compelling(but incomplete) evidence that was used here to assert(granted for a short time) that the IAB(now attributed to S&L) was manufactured, and distributed, by Junckers. It looked and felt great, but it was flawed and incomplete data that was used to make the claim in the first place. We could 'poo-pooh' it and say that this only happened because further more revealing evidence hadn't been uncovered yet. But why fall into that trap all over again?

So, I hope you can forgive me if I don't fully accept that Meybauer was the undisputed manufacturer of the PAB known as the 7-wheeler, just because you, Giel and some unnamed others prescribe to that theory. A theory arrived at with incomplete and inconclusive data to support it...at this point. When the circle is complete fine. It isn't though....is it?

Perhaps I haven't watched enough tv episodes of Manum P.I. and Poirot, or read enough Sherlock Holmes to become a reasonable enough expert at following evidenciary trails. Woe is me.

[Thomas Durante]

Hi guys,

Bruce, thanks for putting forward some interesting points for discussion, that is really the only way to move the ball forward. Everything else in the above two posts is just more hot air. Just more general talk but nothing specific and certainly not real evidence to speak of that refutes the connection to Meybauer. So let me take your three responses to my points and see if I can answer them for you as you seem sincere in wanting to understand our school of thought:

1. 7-wheelers have hand cutouts, which is a Meybauer trait.
(if I'm not mistaken ...weren't there a lot of other companies involved in the production of TR badges that also employed hand-finished cut-outs? Or did Meybauer exhibit a particular 'style' in their cut-outs, which would make them unique, and readily identifiable as being associated with Meybauer and only Meybauer?)

No, there is no "signature sawcut" for Meybauer. All we can say for sure is that Meybauer hand-cut out some of their badges. Sure there were other makers that did this (GWL comes to mind), but I think we can all agree that it was a pretty rare thing to do. So while cut outs don't necessarily point to Meybauer, it certainly narrows down the field to a handful of makers.

2. Hardware is typical of other Meybuaer products (specifically the flattened pin, which is very, very rare to find on any badge, but was used by Meybauer).
(this specific manufacturing use of these certain style of pins was determined how?)

Meybauer used pins that were slightly flattened on all 4 sides rather than round. There is no question about this, we can see it on their maker-marked Luftwaffe Para and Observer badges. This same exact pin can be found on "7-wheeler" PABs as well as attributed Meybauer IABs. This is not 3rd-party supplied hardware being used because we don't find it on any other maker's badges; squared pins are unique. If you don't believe this, then you can atleast admit that it is a VERY rare occurance. Maybe another maker or two could have "theoretically" used these pins, but again, it should at least narrow the possible makers down to just a few.

3. Screwback with Meybauer's DRGM number on it (which is also found on Meybauer-marked WW1 and WW2 EKs)
(I have to admit that this is a compelling peice of the puzzle, but by no means conclusive. I wonder why they didn't mark their alleged 7-wheelers?

I agree, the screwback by itself is not conclusive. None of these 3 points above are conclusive. But when you put them all together, the evidence to Meybauer is overwhelming in my opinion.

Much like a sentence is merely a bunch of words. Each word taken on its own doesn't mean much, but when you put them together in a sentence the whole world changes (I heard this on an old episode of Magnum PI).

Tom

[Chet Sowersby]

Patrick,
Such a outstanding example and one that any PAB enthusiast would dearly love to have in their collection.

The down side is that your thread has been hijacked (just as others) by thoes who have the need to prove that they know what they are talking about.

Again, congratulations on a superb PAB.

Chet

[Norm F]

Patrick,

The down side is that your thread has been hijacked (just as others) by thoes who have the need to prove that they know what they are talking about.

Chet

Ouch. Somewhat harsh considering Patrick himself started off with the Meybauer attribution:

I've never seen a factory screwback 7 wheeler- interesting that the nut is the typical one used by Meybauer so that would firm up the link of them as the maker for this PAB. The nut is finished bronze to match the badge-

But I would agree that given the extremely polarized personalities involved, there is unlikely ever to be a visible consensus in this thread. Even if a majority were to secretly agree on a likely theory, one would never be able to tell by reading the repetitive "is too, is not" seesaw.

And I agree, that's an ultra-cool badge, and would say the term "Meybauer-attributed" is a good compromise descriptor to acknowledge the evidence to date while at the same time recognizing some doubt since it's not quite maker marked.

Best regards,
---Norm

[BassD]

it was a very nice badge... think this is something nobody would deny...

that a thread was highjacked... that could happen. But was this a forum to discuss or a forum only to say: nice badges and let us clapp your hands?

i don't like all what i must read here and in other threads. But i was happy that we have a forum where we can discuss and not only write that this was a nice badge and thats all.